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Poll
What is your opinion of logging a "found it" on a cache where the logger has not solved the puzzle?
This is ok.
37%
 37%  [ 27 ]
This is not ok.
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Other answer not listed.
33%
 33%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 72


Author Message
CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8237
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I voted "This is not ok.", but I think the trend here in the thread is very accurate with a variety of opinions. I think the most important things to remember are to be considerate and respectful of others.

I don't log caches that I don't find and I don't log puzzles that I didn't solve (of course I've never been at a puzzle final for one that I didn't solve, so maybe I'm biased).

I'll be the first to admit that I've worked many puzzles solo, have had the help of the CO on many (you know who you are from my many emails), and have also worked cooperatively with other cachers. I've also helped other cachers with solving puzzles. I don't feel it's right to log puzzles you haven't found. In my opinion, you always have the option to log a note stating "Found with group xyz." in place of a find when you haven't completed all the requirements (i.e. the puzzle).

The same holds true for other types of caches. Having the coordinates for the final of a multi and skipping the rest defeats the intent. Standing at the base of a tree for an Evil Monkey and claiming "Found" defeats the intent. Not rehiding the cache (i.e. leaving it exposed) defeats the purpose. Obviously I state these to show that it's more than just puzzles that can be "shortcut".

I think the key thing is that people should try to respect the intention of the cache as best they can. It's what keeps it enjoyable for everyone. Some of have puzzle solving abilities, some have tree climbing abilities, etc. I know personally how gratifying it is to conquer some of these unique puzzles. I've also spent a few hours trying various methods to get up a tree knowing the intent was to do it without a ladder. It was a great accomplishment to complete these as intended.

I also think it's important to note that these are only my opinions and the way I cache. Other cachers opinions certainly do vary and some may agree with all or some of my opinions. I think the important thing to remember is that we all show each other respect. NOTICE - I didn't say AGREE, I said RESPECT.
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19424
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

CodeJunkie wrote:
I think the key thing is that people should try to respect the intention of the cache as best they can. It's what keeps it enjoyable for everyone.

This is what we try to do, whether it is a puzzle or a regular cache. If it's a night cache, try it at night. If it's a canoe cache, try it with the canoe. If it's a multi, do all the waypoints. If it's a puzzle, solve it yourself (or as a collaboration beforehand). If we need help after trying a find or a puzzle on our own, we may ask the cache owner for a nudge or two. Once in a while, if the cache owner has been AWOL for a while, we'll ask a previous finder where the container is.

I can think of only one time we were caching with others that we didn't have the solve on a puzzle cache. We were going to sign the log and write a note on the cache page until we had had time to try the puzzle ourselves, but in this case, the cache was a DNF for all, so the point was moot. We have since solved the puzzle, but still haven't made the find. And it can also be a letdown at times when caching with a group that not everyone can make the find on a container, especially if it's a unique type of hide, but so far that hasn't been a problem.

But play like you want without destroying the integrity of the game. If the smiley is what you're going for, that's what will make you happy. If it's conquering a physical challenge, that's what will make you happy. If it's the solve on a tricky puzzle, that's what will make you happy. Geocaching is what makes us all happy.
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

CodeJunkie wrote:
I think the most important things to remember are to be considerate and respectful of others.


I agree.

Just because you think it's okay to find a puzzle cache by any means necessary (which I voted makes you a cheater cheater pumkpin eater) does not mean that everyone thinks this way including the owner of the cache and others who may have legitimately solved the puzzle.

I sort of agree with some posts and emails I've read recently. There are plenty of traditional caches out there. If you don't want to solve the puzzle, then by all means put it on the ignore list. You don't have to find all the geocaches on the map. Really. You don't. It won't hurt. I promise!

I take pride in solving puzzle caches and enjoy learning from other creative geocachers that place fun, entertaining, and sometimes educational puzzle caches for me to find. I really want to continue to keep enjoying these for years to come and my way of trying to make sure that happens is to solve the puzzle caches I hunt for and make sure I log my experience appropriately. Also, I respect the owners of these caches and their wishes. I don't rub it in their face that I can find their cache without solving the puzzle.

I would also like to add (a slightly off-topic comment) that a puzzle tour bus of 10+ people is a disrespectful idea. It makes me want to disable all my puzzle caches and not allow logs. I would urge anyone who decides this is a good idea, to respect the owners and others who may have solved the puzzle. Pretty please.

They're not traditional caches. They are different. Just like an Earth Cache is not a traditional cache. You can't log an Earth Cache without fulfilling certain requirements. Why is it okay to log a puzzle cache if you did not solve it (or at a bare minimum understand the puzzle and how it's solved) The difficulty rating of a puzzle cache often includes the puzzle difficulty. They are a different kind of geocache than a traditional.

I don't think it's necessarily about "earning" your smiley as much as it is defining the cache type. A puzzle is not a traditional cache. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Please respect the category and those who choose to play the game differently than you do, especially the cache placers who make this past time fun for some of us.
 
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smashing ground
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-08-23
Posts: 245
Location: Madison,WI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

if your caching with someone else how about the method "since i solved the puzzle you find the cache"
that seems to fair right?
 
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Mister Greenthumb
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-03
Posts: 2742

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

smashing ground wrote:
if your caching with someone else how about the method "since i solved the puzzle you find the cache"
that seems to fair right?


That's why I take the grand kids. I solve the puzzle and then I send them up the tree or through the brambles to find the cache.
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:33 am Reply with quote Back to top

One clarification on my opinion of the topic. I think that caching teams (couples, families, friends) that cache under the same name are a bit different than multiple teams getting together for "puzzle tours".

Teams/families should not be discouraged from doing puzzles. Should everyone understand the puzzle, yes. Do they all need to solve it themselves? well that's just picking nits. I don't think anyone is being that critical. Even the die hard "must solve it yourself" crew shouldn't expect that all the time because it just won't happen that way.
 
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Mister Greenthumb
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-03
Posts: 2742

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

-cheeto- wrote:
One clarification on my opinion of the topic. I think that caching teams (couples, families, friends) that cache under the same name are a bit different than multiple teams getting together for "puzzle tours".

Teams/families should not be discouraged from doing puzzles. Should everyone understand the puzzle, yes. Do they all need to solve it themselves? well that's just picking nits. I don't think anyone is being that critical. Even the die hard "must solve it yourself" crew shouldn't expect that all the time because it just won't happen that way.


That is kinda what I do with OPPS5 (daughter's family and grand kids). They are regular cachers, but because of the kids school and soccer can barely squeeze caching time in, let alone time to solve puzzles. We do usually discuss what I had to go through to solve a puzzle and I know that they appreciate and enjoy caches that they would otherwise not have the opportunity to hunt. The outings with them are our most fun adventures.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:00 am Reply with quote Back to top

-cheeto- wrote:

I would also like to add (a slightly off-topic comment) that a puzzle tour bus of 10+ people is a disrespectful idea. It makes me want to disable all my puzzle caches and not allow logs. I would urge anyone who decides this is a good idea, to respect the owners and others who may have solved the puzzle. Pretty please.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. While I can only speculate about the motives behind this particularly-timed tour, without question it is giving the proverbial Middle Finger to cache owners in the Valley who the organizer knows are frustrated by this practice. This goes way beyond horse-trading and the occasional out-caching-with "found it" log. It's also abundantly clear that nothing I or anyone else can say will cause the organizer or participants to see this point of view.


Last edited by gotta run on Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total 
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gkrone
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-12-28
Posts: 147
Location: Pleasant Prairie, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

Actually did this two weeks ago in Racine. I had found the first of the two clue caches and was making my way along towards the second while exploring possible hide spots. I came to a tree that looked like a good hiding spot and there was the final under a few stones. It was already getting a little late so I signed the log and went home. I do plan on getting to the other clue cache sometime.
 
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BakRdz
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-08-20
Posts: 967
Location: OshVegas

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:30 am Reply with quote Back to top

Seems a pretty varied response so far, which I guess goes with my thought on the subject.

I am not the puzzle junkie that some people are. I've done a few "doozies" that gave me headaches, but the puzzle was part of the overall experience for me. However, it's not an experience I want very often. Sometimes I just want to go and grab a bunch of guardrails and cemeteries to break up a day. Sometimes I'm looking for a unique adventure and I don't care if I only do one that day. It's about what kind of adventure I'm interested in at the moment. For puzzles, there has to be something special about it FOR ME to spend the headscratching time on it.

Another example of not following the intent: I've done plenty of Marc's cemetery caches where he would like me to post a picture of some example of a headstone I've found. I've yet to do it. Probably never will. (Not that I'm the only one either.) Why? I DO like spending the time looking around at the other headstones often (which I think is the intent), but I don't have the patience to collect and post photos just to log the find. That is a part of the experience that doesn't interest me. Does that make it wrong?

With that said, it's no skin off my back if people want to "skip" the intent of my caches and group find them. I place puzzle caches for the enjoyment of others, not to prove how devilish or clever I can be. I just want the experience to be fun for people. If ganging up to solve it is fun, then go ahead. If you don't think it's going to be fun, don't do it...and certainly don't complain to me that it wasn't fun afterward. That's like asking someone to pinch you then complaining it hurt.

But...personally, if I spend the time solving someone's puzzle, you won't get the answer from me unless you do, too. I believe it is up to the CO to decide whether you have suffered enough for the solution.

Final thoughts: Unless the cache in a once in a lifetime area and I just couldn't get the solve on my own, I won't even bother with it. After all, it's just a container with a piece of paper in it. There will be lots more of those.

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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6121
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:15 am Reply with quote Back to top

Only have time for a short statement here right now, more may follow but,

I would appeal to everyone to at least attempt to solve the puzzle cache before just blindly adding your name to the log sheet. There are a myriad of puzzles with varying difficulty. If the cache owner placed a 3-5 star rating on difficulty due to the puzzle solution, then there is probably some reason and you should owe it to yourself to see if that reason is because the CO just wanted to frustrate the heebiejeebies out of you or is the effort put in going to be worth it in the end. Hey, you just might learn something too. There are a few puzzle cache developers that put alot of work into these caches to make the experience enjoyable either solving the puzzle or at the final location, often it is both.

It may just come down to respect for the efforts of the owner.

as mentioned earlier, if you happen to find yourself in a place you may never get to again and have opportunity to log in on the paper, when you log on-line, think about posting a note and then when you have solved the puzzle, go ahead and edit your log to a smiley. Or IF the cache owner doesn't give a lick whether or not you solved it, go ahead and log the find. (if you have the final coords, working the puzzle backwards can be easier, and in the end you may get a portion of what the CO wanted you to.)

many of the puzzles out there have a purpose. Teach you something, show you something, tease your mind to keep it nimble, emphasize some idiosyncrasies of the world or languages, take you back to your childhood or some rediculous fad from the 70s,80s.

don't short yourselves. this is a game, there are no prizes except for the ones you make from your adventures.

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All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:11 am Reply with quote Back to top

I find the results thus far interesting. I would not have guessed that 2/3 folks think this is OK or OK provisionally. I voted OK provisionally as there are certain times (when in the course of human events) folks cache with friends and are caught out as the only one who didnít solve the puzzle or perhaps your brother with a different account name made the solve...maybe you are just not up to the challenge of a particular puzzle solve but really want to hunt it (and get a smile for that physical hunt).

Any number of ďexcusesĒ can be made....but in the end is getting a puzzleís location from someone else really all that different than caching with a group and you are not the one who saw the cache first....so the other 9 folks should post a note or perhaps not log it at all? What if it is a difficulty or terrain 5 cache? Would all 10 folks be able to find the cache? Likely not. But should they be allowed to log the find because they had help? Sure that is not an appleís to apples comparison but in this game rarely can something be compared equally. Ethics is a sticky subject and one which has been debated since the beginning of time.

Do I think a tour of puzzles is in bad taste? Sure. But at the same time I would love to be able to grab another 100+ finds in a puzzle rich area. I like seeking out the container. I like seeing the area and what it has to offer...maybe itís a city view, maybe it is somewhere in the woods. Particularly in (OK Iíll go there) the valley, all I see when I look at the map is a sea of blue question marks....trust me when I say that the temptation is there to catch a ride on the puzzle express after all all I want to do is go caching. I love the hunt more than the technical details often involved in a puzzle solve. I realize I can ignore them but again I like the hunt and if there are containers to be found near by Iíd like to hunt them...if there are dozens or hundreds of puzzles Iíd like to find those containers as well...not pretend they donít exist. I do love a good puzzle sometimes but I just donít have the time to solve (really even look at) hundreds of puzzles...I just want to cache.

I guess this sounds like I lean towards the "It's OK to log a puzzle you didn't solve" side but in fact I lean further the other way.

In the end as a cache owner, I want folks to log my cache. I want them to enjoy the hunt. If they enjoy the puzzle solve awesome, that's how I wanted them to experience my cache....if they were given the coords, and enjoyed the physical hunt great. So long as they had fun.
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting thread. I wish this were a poll for only those that have created puzzle caches, because I have been told, ďthat's my expectation as it is with any puzzle publisher, solve the puzzle and find the cache.Ē Any? Looks like a few puzzle creators have different thoughts.

I think the word ďsolveĒ can mean many things to various people. What constitutes a solve? Does a puzzle have to be solved the way the owner intended or can a solver come up with their own way? Can your non-caching partner solve it? Can you have your grandkids do the solve? You donít know jack about integration and differentiation, so you hand a calculus puzzle to your college son/daughter to solve. You paid some pretty big bills. Canít you see if your money has been put to good use? Canít you get a smiley for that? Does that mean you could pay someone to solve a puzzle for you? Is that a solve? Does printing out the puzzle show effort on your part that you in some way contributed to part of a group solve and are now worthy of getting a smiley? What does contributing to a solve entail? Is solving a puzzle none other than coming up with the answer? Can you steal it off the teachers desk? Can you pound coordinates into a geochecker? Is that a solve? Is that respectful to the owner? Can you hack Becky or Daveís account? Is it fair that the Brians, JT, Becky and Dave never had to solve a puzzle? JUST KIDDING!!! Iíve known geocachers that have found puzzle caches based on logs, proximity and other clues. Is that not a solve? Is the solve the cache? Is the solve the coordinates? Is the solve figuring out the coordinates the way an owner intended?

Hereís a scenario that would bother some puzzle cache creators. Itís ok for a husband and wife team to log a find on a puzzle cache that only one has solved, but is NOT ok for them to each log a find under separate accounts. Iíve been told that cheapens the find to all the other solvers that put in the time and effort. What does a spouse have to do to earn a smiley? Stare at the puzzle and whisper words of encouragement? And what about multi-person usernames? Do some have issue with one person going this way and another going that way and each logs their finds? If a husband has a business meeting in Florida, can he find a cache and log it under his username even though both were not there? Is that Ĺ a smiley? Is this a competition?

What about a mechanical puzzle in the field? Does a group of 3 cachers each have to solve the puzzle in the field before they can put their name on the log? I guess if you donít want to hurt the CO feelings, you should ask first before finding the cache. I recall a terribly difficult mechanical puzzle that I had a hard time getting back together. I eventually had to call the CO for an instruction sheet to put the thing back together. Now if Iím with a group, does everyone have to go through that? Did they earn the smiley? Is it fair to the others that solved the mechanical puzzle?

What about other ďin the fieldĒ solves? Does each member of a group need to have their own sheet of paper and do the calculations themselves? How do I know if Iím upsetting the owner if he hasnít spelled out everything he expects in the cache listing?

And it isnít just the puzzles. Some owners expect you to park at certain parking coordinates and make the find from there. What if your relative/friend owns the land bordering a location and your journey went from a 2 mile uphill hike to 300ft piece of cake walk? Do you deserve a smiley?

Does every cache owner think that a cache needs to be found in the manner they intended? And if so, how are we to know those intentions if theyíre not spelled out? If a group of 4 cachers drive into a Walmart and park next to a skirt lifter, does everyone have to get out of the car and sign the log? Maybe. Maybe that owner expects every single person find it, sign it, hide it and let the next person take their turn. Does everyone have to use a finders tree? Or is group hunting cheating and not worthy of a smiley. If 3 cachers go out for 2 hours and 1 poor soul never found a single cache, does he deserve the 10 smileys that the other 2 found?

Does following tracks in the snow count as cheating? To some, who knows. Does finding an island cache using an ice bridge go against the intended wishes of the owner? Is that worthy of a smiley? Who knows. Is using a ladder for a cache, thatís out of reach, cheating if the owner wants you to climb the tree and experience it the way they intended? Can one person in a group climb a tree or does everyone have to do it? Who knows.

95% of the puzzles Iíve found, probably more, Iíve personally solved and have enjoyed most. I try and let the owner see that in my logs and in the interaction I may have with the owner trying to get a nudge here and there. On some of the puzzles where I was part of the find and not the solver, I inquired to the solve method. Do I now have to go and painstakingly do the solve before the owner thinks Iím worthy? Why? For what purpose? Schadenfreude comes to mind on some of the ďguess what Iím thinking hereĒ puzzles.

No matter how someone finds a cache, there will be others that feel itís not deserving of a smiley. Seems to me that the smileyís are the problem. Itís been mentioned before that if you donít like certain caches ignore them. If it should be easy for a geocacher to ignore a cache that they donít intend to find the exact way an owner intends, it should be just as easy for an owner to ignore the smiley that they feel a finder doesnít deserve.

Now T&B, you should be careful before lobbing stones from your glass house. It took me less then 2 minutes to find this interesting log, ďMy caching partner Birdin' took care of the hard part (figuring out the puzzle)Ē. Does this mean you were with a tagalong? Should your friend from MN have logged a find? Does it ďbugĒ you that they didnít solve the puzzle? I know it doesnít bother me. And since you personally did not find the cache the way the CO intended, should you have logged a find? Your interpretation of a 5 difficulty(needing special equipment) makes sense but still does not follow the owners intended wishes. And a little FYI, tagalong was not a name that our group chose that day, it was a label given to my friends by a CO that has made some assumptions, but has no idea who solved what, where and how. In regards to S4, Iíve spent at least 2 hours staring and working various ideas but nothing ever worked. 3hawks came up with the solve for that puzzle and gave me a hint on the method to crack it. Do I now have to go through the complete solve process to make the world happy and give my smiley meaning?

How about this story. Iíve been working on a really well done puzzle series that goes into the history of a small city. The CO clearly indicates that he worked hand in hand with a local alderman who provided insight. They both hope that people come and appreciate their unique little community. This is a good 1 Ĺ - 2 hours from home for me, so I prefer to save some gas and not go it alone. So I cache with some friends. I have no idea who has solved what and I donít tell my friends how they should play the game. Even though the CO has a strong belief that I have solved these puzzles and my friends may not have, he has been very clear with me, ďIf cachers don't want to solve the puzzles, then don't come here and find them. Not a hard concept to grasp.Ē Iíd love to pose this question to the Alderman. Would you rather have one person learn about your city and bring a few friends to visit, spend some time and money, or would you prefer that we all stay away because some of the friends may or may not have shown the same interest? I think I know his answer.

I try not to let this crap get to me, but obviously from the size of this log, something was triggered. What really bothers me are the stories Iíve heard from newbies where they are criticized or told point blank how they should play the game. Nice way to introduce someone to this game. Chastising someone for asking help from a fellow cacher without conferring with the owner? Where the hell is that rule? Does everyone have to get down on their knees and stroke the COís ego to beg for a hint or get some direction? If a coworker has figured out a difficult solve or found a very tricky hide, is it sacrilege to ask that person for a hint? Is it taboo to discuss different ideas with non-COís on certain puzzles at events? Some COís feel that way. I have always tried to show the COís how much I appreciate the time, effort and the education I may have received from their caches. I feel I respect the game and I respect that others may have a different opinion.

I use to play golf with this guy that was a stickler for the rules. Mulligans? No way. Pick up a 3 inch gimme putt? No way. Club touches the sand on a practice swing. 2 penalty strokes. All these rules and here he is improving his lie after nearly every shot. I donít play with him anymore. He played the game his way and I play it my way.

Play the game the way you want. Have some respect for the owners within reason and hopefully theyíll show you some respect in return. And, by all means, have fun.

I know Judas doesnít want to hear this, but JC and his disciples may be coming to a town near you.
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ummmmm ya! Pretty much what he^^^ said.
 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

cheezehead wrote:
Ummmmm ya! Pretty much what he^^^ said.

And boy howdy did he say it well.
 
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