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Poll
What is your opinion of logging a "found it" on a cache where the logger has not solved the puzzle?
This is ok.
37%
 37%  [ 27 ]
This is not ok.
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Other answer not listed.
33%
 33%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 72


Author Message
gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Johnny Cache wrote:
Have some respect for the owners within reason and hopefully they’ll show you some respect in return.


I again agree wholeheartedly. Second time today.
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:46 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
I’ve heard from newbies where they are criticized or told point blank how they should play the game.


In all fairness, they are told how they should play one way or the other, not just the way you are implying. I hear a certain veteran telling newbies it's okay to find a cache by any means necessary. That's not really right either.

If you are in a situation where you are teaching new geocachers about the game (specifically about Puzzle caches), please represent the differing opinions of the game's community of players (and cache owners) and do so with respect and neutrality. That's the best way to let them make up their mind on this topic which certainly divides the community based on the responses and poll results thus far.
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Shane,

The only thing I was implying came from a later sentence.

Quote:
Chastising someone for asking help from a fellow cacher without conferring with the owner?


This I would hope is something than no one thinks is acceptable. Maybe explain to the person that it would be appreciated if they contact the owner before asking someone else. But a blunt, in your face, response to someone new to the game is ridiculous. And why does someone HAVE to confer with the owner if they're more comfortable asking a friend that may have got them involved in the first place? I don't see this as a cacher disrespecting the owner. I see it as someone trying to enjoy the game on their terms.


In regards to explaining geocaching to someone new to the game, I certainly would give both sides to the puzzle cache & temp cache opinions. But I would stress that it is completely up to them to decide how they want to play the game. Don't let anyone tell you want you can and can't do.
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Johnny Cache wrote:


I know Judas doesn’t want to hear this, but JC and his disciples may be coming to a town near you.


JC and his disciples are welcome to visit Eau Claire anytime that you choose.

zuma

_________________
Keep On Cachin In The Free World.

All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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Team Deejay
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-10-02
Posts: 2390
Location: Rochester, WI, US

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

One thing to remember is that the official ruling from geocaching.com is:

Quote:
If you sign the logbook, you can log the cache online.


Of course, there are other sites you can choose to play on, and maybe some of them allow stricter logging requirements. Otherwise, though, if you place your caches on gc.com, you need to accept that some people will choose to bushwack find your 5 star puzzle, some people will stumble upon the final of your 18 stage multi before finding the first stage, some people will drive their car down the bike trail to avoid a hike, and, yes, some people will get help on solving difficult puzzles. Those are the current rules that we play by. I would suggest contact@geocaching.com or the national forums if you would like to lobby for a change to the rules.

Personally, we don't look for puzzle caches that we haven't solved, or drive down bike trails, but we don't hesitate to ask for help if we need it. (We also are not averse to ladders or ice bridges.)
 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Team Deejay wrote:
...some people will drive their car down the bike trail to avoid a hike...
I only did this once (in Hudson)...and in my defense the trail looked like a road in winter....and it wasn't well marked.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Team Deejay wrote:
One thing to remember is that the official ruling from geocaching.com is:

Quote:
If you sign the logbook, you can log the cache online.




Yes, this is The Letter of the Law.

However...is any behavior acceptable in order to claim the smilely? Or, are there accepted practices within the gaming community regarding logging online? I maintain there are indeed accepted practices.

For instance, there are no rules in geocaching.com against posting spoilers in the log. In fact, each cache page says before the logs--"Warning. Spoilers may be included in the descriptions or links." Yet this is frowned upon--in fact, I'd put money on a bet that the vast majority of active cache owners would delete a log that posted puzzle cache coordinates or gave away a tricky hide. How the heck is that any different than handing a sheet of solve coordinates to a busload of people other than a smaller audience?

In addition to The Letter of the Law regarding logging online, we have to look at The Spirit of the Law. Let's start by looking again at some more of those rules, from the gc.com site:

Quote:
Mystery or Puzzle Caches
The "catch-all" of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.


I challenge anyone to argue against the fact that the clearly-stated intent of the class of "Mystery or Puzzle" caches is to first solve the puzzle to obtain the coordinates, 'cuz it says it right there.

As -cheeto- said earlier, some caches are different than traditional caches for a reason and he mentions EarthCaches as an example. I'd also add Challenge Caches to the list, which are actually part of the Puzzle class wording.

Therefore, puzzle caches, EarthCaches, Challenge Caches, are all "something different" caches that--according to the rules--do require more effort. They are designed to require more than just loading a PQ into your GPSr and heading into the field to look for the container.

However, with puzzle caches, owners obviously cannot enforce the requirement to complete the puzzle, as they can enforce the requirement to complete a challenge or EarthCache. And human nature being what it is, that is a loophole that will be exploited.

Yes, there are rules. But, as has been pointed out by others, there is also respect within the context of this game.

Now, the refrain I hear a lot is "play the game any way you want." Well, the geocaching community does NOT condone playing the game any way you want. Specifically, the community frowns upon activities that diminish the quality or character of the cache for the next player--leaving caches in the open rather than rehiding them; mooching swag, etc. Do these things still happen? Yep. Are they poor caching etiquette? Yep.

Giving a bunch of people coordinates to a puzzle they never even bothered to look at before they get home to log it online diminishes the cache for both the owner who went through the trouble of working up the cache, and the others who have actually taken the time to solve the puzzle. It's the same as if I'd walk 5 miles to get a T5 cache, then bring it back and dump it in the parking lot to make it easier for my "out caching with" buddies and future finders to find. (Ok, I know the rules prohibit moving a cache, it's just an example.) It would no longer be T5 cache, just like a D5 puzzle whose coordinates end up on the public bulletin board or tour circuit is no longer a D5. It's diminished.

Now, fortunately not every tour is simply a coordinate hand-out, but I know that some are. (More specifically, having never been on a tour, I am told that some are from those who were there.) And, as Johnny Cache most thoroughly points out, there are lots of grey areas. We cache as a family and the "gotta run" account gets the smilely no matter who finally made the solve breakthrough. Now, I do not let my daughter log these puzzles under her own account unless she helped solve it, but I'm probably in the minority there. Of course, the online record is not important to her and she has little interest in "clearing the map" of those pesky ?s, so she doesn't care all that much.

Yes it's a game.

Yes there are tons of scenarios that don't fit the neat answer categories in this poll.

Yes there are more important things in life.

Yes I have better things to do than police our cache logs and so I don't.

But if we all didn’t care about it we wouldn’t be here reading this or playing the game in the first place. I strongly, strongly believe some of the behavior I am seeing diminishes the game and, most distressingly, I also believe it is done with the intent of the virtual destruction of puzzles, either because those Cache Vandals are frustrated with not being able to solve a difficult puzzle, or because they'd rather see fewer (or no) puzzles being placed.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
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kc9gbo
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-06-07
Posts: 254
Location: West Salem, Wi.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Not to take away from this site, but their is a puzzle and a discussion on solving it going on at the Minnesota geocaching site that mirrors the discussion here.
http://mngca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5275&highlight=puzzle+valley

Reason I bring that into the discussion is that someone there asked others to help solve the puzzle, while others chose brute force. Eventually the ftf was a person that actually solved it, but if you go to the cache page a lot of folks followed footsteps in the area to the cache afterward that day.
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=28f3c495-b124-4fc7-88d5-e39939302dd9 (cache page)[/url]
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19219
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

BakRdz wrote:
Another example of not following the intent: I've done plenty of Marc's cemetery caches where he would like me to post a picture of some example of a headstone I've found. I've yet to do it. Probably never will. (Not that I'm the only one either.) Why? I DO like spending the time looking around at the other headstones often (which I think is the intent), but I don't have the patience to collect and post photos just to log the find. That is a part of the experience that doesn't interest me. Does that make it wrong?

BakRdz, I would like to suggest to you and to others to rethink Marc's 900 cemetery series. This was originally set up to get people to actually see the unique headstones that are highlighted for each cache. The difficulty ratings of these caches were determined by how hard an example of each stone was to find, and if several cachers could log the same stone or if each needed his/her "own" stone for the photo.

Then the edict on additional logging requirements came down just short of a year ago, and uploading photos for these caches became optional. The series, for most people, especially those cachers who came along after the photos were not required, has now become a series of usually quick finds of bison tubes stuck in a bunch of cemeteries--nothing much more than make the quick grab, sign the log, and go.

Talk to some people who wandered all over any cemetery they found themselves near, camera in hand, eyes scouring stones for the unique features Marc highlighted for each particular cache. We have maybe a dozen of these finds, with photos for most. We still hope to get farther east to find more of these so that we can upload some of the photos we have already taken. We still take snapshots in cemeteries in anticipation of making some more 900 series finds. And we still enjoy the series.

OK. Back to the Puzzle Tour wars...
 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8208
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Chastising someone for asking help from a fellow cacher without conferring with the owner?

I think this comes from a comment I made and may have been partly misinterpreted. I was a newbie cacher working on a S|S cache and being ignorant I asked the prior finder for help (it made sense to me because they touched it last). Long story short - S|S contacted me and we had a good email exchange on the topic. At the meet / greet a few weeks ago I was talking to some others and mentioned that my intro to puzzles included the Laughing Waters (also LCG intro) and that I got a rather terse (or similar) email from S|S. S|S exchanged a number of messages and we know have a great puzzle creator / puzzle seeker relationship and I'm a better cacher because of it.

Quote:
Marc's cemetery caches ... post a picture of some example of a headstone

I also love the WSQ 9xx series of caches. At first I thought it was creepy to be in cemeteries, but because of these caches have learned to enjoy them. I spent many lunch hours last summer as a newbie wandering cemeteries looking at all the unique things there are to see. Prior to this I had never really thought about it. I applaud Marc for putting this whole series together and I'm a believer in following the intent (whether it's truly a requirement anymore or not).

The short (of the this lengthy post) is that there are some great puzzles out there and I encourage everyone to try a few. You'll be amazed at what you learn and how much fun they can be. Yes some are hard, but so is an 18 stage multi (and it can consume just as much "real estate"). Yes they tie up some space, but many of the actual hides I've found are in ho-hum urban neighborhoods (sorry no offense) that wouldn't make for very memorable traditionals). When you get stuck, ask for help. I've yet to have a CO tell me to get screwed when I treat them with respect, explain what I've tried, what my assumptions are, etc. Believe it or not, they do actually want you to find their caches.

I publicly thank seldom|seen, marc_54140, -cheeto-, gotta run, sagasu, and all the other great puzzle creators out there. You've really made my first year of caching memorable because of the puzzles you've placed and I look forward to doing many more. (Please forgive me, but I can't list all the creators here and don't want anyone to feel slighted)
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:19 pm Reply with quote Back to top

CJ! I DO feel slighted! So go Jump in a lake!!! J/K!!!!!
Cuz I do not feel that have reached the level of Puzzle Mastery that the fore mentioned have attained. Thou I am proud of most of my puzzles.
 
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3 Hawks
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-09-14
Posts: 277
Location: Oak Creek, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:31 am Reply with quote Back to top

Watch out JC, the OP might accuse you of having "anger management issues" simply because you pose a logical and passionate alternative argument. If you really strike a cord, you might even receive the "why don't you get back to me after you've placed some caches...until then your opinion is of no value" PM.

It would appear placing caches causes far too much mental anguish for some.

I find it ironic how some argue with passion for "freedom to play the game as you like" in one thread and then argue with the same passion in other threads that playing as you like is cheating unless you play it their way. They solicit for feedback and then attack like vultures anyone who has an opposing view.

If this post evokes feelings of disgust or anger in any reader, maybe that reader should re-evaluate the priorities in their life.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:03 am Reply with quote Back to top

I apologize for anything I may have said to offend you. I have said things in these forums in frustration and in response to other comments, but as my father used to tell me, two wrongs don't make a right. I've learned in the forums over the years that it's easy for small deals to become big deals when they shouldn't, particularly in a venue where it's easy to misinterpret statements or assign meanings and subtleties that weren't intended. So I have tried to temper my responses, albeit frequently unsuccessfully. I do not claim to be perfect or anywhere near it. So again, I apologize.

I started this poll because I have a genuine interest in how the community feels on this topic. If you don't believe that, that is your choice. First of all, I feel the community could benefit from this knowledge. There are many people who won't wade into a heated discussion on the topic, so I felt a poll that could be answered anonymously would be a good measure of the public temperature reading on the subject.

Also, personally I want to know this to determine how to address both existing and future cache placements, as well as to see how my views compare to the community as a whole. If I'm indeed in the small minority, maybe I should "just shut up" about it (as has been suggested more than once...) and accept the fact that puzzle caches have a short shelf life as things to be enjoyed as designed by the owners before they simply devolve into an unremarkable, de facto traditional hide.

Otherwise, I have a right to continue advocating my point of view, which is not to tell others how to play the game for themselves, but to cease in behavior that diminishes the game for others, not just those who place caches, but those who take pride in the puzzles they solve. It may be a quixotic endeavor.
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19219
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:19 am Reply with quote Back to top

gotta run wrote:
... to see how my views compare to the community as a whole.

Sounds like there's no definitive answer out there for you, gotta run, or for anyone. Six of one, half dozen of the other. But let's hope the discussion here gets people thinking, especially the newer cachers who may not have known all the varying opinions on this subject.
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19219
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:32 am Reply with quote Back to top

cheezehead wrote:
Cuz I do not feel that have reached the level of Puzzle Mastery that the fore mentioned have attained. Thou I am proud of most of my puzzles.

Cheezehead, you are the Puzzle Master for all areas north of Highway 64, if such areas DO exist. wink And you are right to be proud of your puzzles--tricky and fun.

And this brings to the fore that all puzzles are not created equal, and all puzzle creators are not created equal when it comes to how they want their puzzle caches solved and found. Check with them first, and you will make them happier and yourselves happier.

And if you get the chance, check out different puzzles all over the state. You don't have to have plans to go to the actual locations to make the find, but you will enjoy the variety of puzzles that are out there. Within the Fox Valley alone, you have several different types of "puzzlers", and Cheezehead is totally different from any of them. There are puzzle "zones" near Green Bay and Wausau, too. We've done a few puzzles near Madison, some near Milwaukee, and a few here and there elsewhere around the state. Whatever the type, it's always so much fun to get the Success! on a solve, and then it makes us want to get to that area to make the find.

Puzzles, puzzles, puzzles... so rewarding to work on.
 
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