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WGA Member

Joined: 2009-06-07
Posts: 254
Location: West Salem, Wi.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:22 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, so this is something that I have mixed feelings about but it has been nagging me for a bit and I guess I just need to gauge what others think. This may irritate some people but I feel I need to type out my thoughts on this.

First, a definition of churning, churning in my definition is the process of hiding a cache, then after a period of time archiving that cache and rehiding one nearby, see IowaAdmin's blog here for further details:

Having said that locally to me there is a cacher that is not active during the summer/late spring/early fall months but this time of the year will reappear and place caches, now normally this would be good in my opinion as I like a ftf and the new caches. However, what they like to do is archive a cache and the place one within 10-50 feet of the previous cache and resubmit it, sometimes the previous cache is still there in a "fair" condition that a little maintenance could be done to, if the cache was missing they will archive it and not even replace the missing cache. My feeling as a hide and seeker is that if I place a cache it is for a long term placement and that unless there is an issue I will not archive it (I've replaced some of my caches 6 times and moved it a bit to keep it active) but to archive and replace within feet of the old hide to me just to get your hide numbers up and just to have people seeking ftf's to me is not how I feel as an owner should operate. I guess my feelings towards this wouldn't be so negative if I when out finding the new cache I didn't find the old one still in it's hiding spot or if the hider would periodically during the summer do some maintenance on the caches they have instead of letting them disappear or fall apart.

Finally, I agree with IowaAdmin's position on churning and I feel as an owner it is your job to make the cache last more than a year and that if you wish to hide more go out and find new spots to bring people. If you can't maintain what you have, archive some and let other folks try to place caches in those locations for a longer time period. I enjoy caching and finding new areas that I've never been to, but if I've been back to a spot for the 3rd time in the same amount of years it gets old. Ok.. Rant done, off to don my flameproof gear and wait for the nasty grams..

One last thing.. thought about a poll on peoples opinion, but can't come up with a good way to phrase a question about it.
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gotta run
WGA Member

Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I thought there was something in the guidelines about the "expectation of permanence" or something like that. Although exceptions were made for things like Christmas caches, the idea is that a cache would stick around for a while.
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WGA Member

Joined: 2009-06-07
Posts: 254
Location: West Salem, Wi.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:27 am Reply with quote Back to top

There is that also, that is still in the guidelines.
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WGA Member

Joined: 2008-08-14
Posts: 5456
Location: Rosendale WI

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

That was one of my first questions before hiding a cache!


I received responses from both ends of the spectrum. It all depends on the CO; the longevity of interest in the game, time constraints, commitment to maintaining the cache, family support (or lack thereof), even the location could be a factor.

But NOT picking up an old container after an archive/rehide is NOT acceptable, in my opinion.

If I don't agree with the cache ethics of a CO, I don't seek their caches. Sometimes actions are better than words...and safer! wink
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Team Deejay
WGA Member

Joined: 2005-10-02
Posts: 2401
Location: Rochester, WI, US

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The permanence guideline implies that all caches should be placed with an expected life of 3 months or more. That said, if someone places a cache which turns out to be a bad placement, they can, of course, archive the listing without waiting the 3 months. This guideline is all about intent.

As far as churning goes, putting a new cache in exactly the same spot as an old cache, owned by the same person, would generally not be allowed if we notice it. We would, as Ken did, just offer to reinstate the old listing. But, assuming they change the location or change the nature of the container or the cache, we would go ahead an publish a new listing. After all, our goal is to publish the caches submitted. If it meets the guidelines, we try to hit the PUBLISH button. Sometimes, this bites us when people place caches in folk's driveway, place caches with very bad coordinates that turn out to be in people's yards (and not near the street where they originally claimed), or just sneak through caches which involved defacement of public property or outright vandalism. The reality is that we can't catch this sort of problem unless finders let us know.

Incidentally, I would say that this particular hider doesn't hold a monopoly on this sort of "near-churning" behavior. I see it all over the state.

Team DeeJay
Dave and Julie 
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WGA Member

Joined: 2007-01-05
Posts: 92
Location: La crosse

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Here one for you kc9gbo have you discussed this with this cacher or are you going to complain if you don`t like this churning my thought on this suject is it keeps the sport fresh I don`t put caches in the same spot just change up locations or specialized container such as on tanks poor mans micro`s of sorts you can look at them and not even know it a cache if you don`t like the challenge nobody forcing you to look for said caches beside its done all over the state a lot of cachers do it Zuma has redone alot of caches all over the state and there nothing wrong with it just another thing for people to complain about
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WGA Member

Joined: 2009-06-07
Posts: 254
Location: West Salem, Wi.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

No, Vt I haven't and yes I see it all over the state also and this could fall into the category of things that will kill the sport. And yes, I will freely admit I do search for them eventually and probably will when I need to find a cache for my day challenge, but to keep going back to places that I was at just a few weeks ago because the hider felt it best to redo it when the cache was perfectly fine rubs me the wrong way.
After spending a fair amount of time this year caching elsewhere while trying to maintain my caches I found it refreshing to get out and find new and interesting locations with caches that are older than a year or two and that were well maintained. As an example I cite King Boreas who has some challenging ones that I've found and yet has older caches that he's kept alive even after them being muggled, yet he also finds new spots to bring people and that to me is the way it should be.
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WGA Member

Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:20 pm Reply with quote Back to top

For the record, I avoid churning. And even if I did churn, it is kind of ignorant to try to say that it is "Ok to churn because Zuma churns."

My practice is to keep the old cache alive if possible, keeping the same GC number and the history of the cache intact. For example 8 of the 14 caches that I placed in 2004 are still active, with the same GC number. Of the 6 that have been archived, almost every one of them had to be archived because I placed them too close to water, and they got washed away, and those exact locations were not reused or churned.

So when I go out to maintain caches, I try to keep the same GC number if at all possible, to preserve the history of the cache. On the other hand, if I think it best to change the size of the container, or make the difficulty of the hide easier or more difficult, then to me that is a valid reason to archive the existing cache, and submit a new cache listing.

And I think I have been pretty transparent about using the same cache locations from time to time. For example, my hide at Owen Park didnt last like it should have, so when I made a better hide, I called it Owen Park 2.0. When that when got muggled, I got an even better container, so now it is now Owen Park 3.0. Likewise, Labyrinth and Labyrinth 2.0 got washed away, so now I have Labyrinth 3.0 out in a place less likely to get washed away, but still designed to show off the labyrinth in Phoenix Park. That may look like churning to some, since it is the same location, but the new GC number is not there to inflate someone's numbers. Rather, the new GC number is there because there is a substantial change in the type of hide.

So, I do not "churn." And even if I did, that would not make it right.


Keep On Cachin In The Free World.

All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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WGA Member

Joined: 2006-07-31
Posts: 86
Location: Chippewa Falls

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A permanence guideline of 3 months seems awfully temporary to me, wish it were more like a year or so.

I agree with everything you said kc9gbo. Thank you for your thoughts on churning. I would tend to disagree with the notion that churning keeps the game fresh. There are bazillions of fresh caches all over the state/country/world that I could go out and find. Personally, if I've been to a spot 2 or 3 times I won't bother going back unless it's a really awesome spot.
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