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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

You have mellowed in your old age, s|s... Shocked
 
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Northwoods Tom
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-12-03
Posts: 643
Location: Washington Island

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:32 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Team Black-Cat wrote:
I really can't understand why it's easier to ask a previous finder for a clue than it is to ask the cache owner.

They might say no...

Team Black-Cat wrote:
...requiring that all caches must be able to be found by every cacher.

I missed that rule and will continue to not be able to find it.
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:
The unfortunate thing about becoming an avid cacher and then stepping into the WGA forums is that you walk into a room filled with very strong opinions – developed over years of vitriolic exchanges on the ever cycling topics of caching ethics, puzzle short-cutting and solve-sharing. Even the most inane and innocent request for help raises the ire of those who've been down this road and been burned so many times before.

It's been touched on in this and other recent threads. The prevailing issue in all of these discussions, comes down to respecting the wishes of the cache creator, no matter what type or how intricate the cache. If you place a power trial, you should certainly expect nothing more that a "TFTC #___" Conversely, if you place a puzzle cache that took you many many hours to contemplate, develop and execute, you expect a whole lot more in the "found it" log than TFTC or an emotican. There really are no legitimate reasons for not sharing what it took to make the solve, what you may have learned in the process and what the experience of making the find was like. The reward we puzzle creators get from our time and energy invested is relishing the solve experiences in the retelling. Limitations of time and or technology are just excuses for not giving back.

Now, I can totally understand the desire to log complex puzzle caches if you manage to get your hands on solves via the social caching network or other means and I get that it might be difficult to let "?"'s est un-found if you can just go sign the slip of paper, not having invested the hours into "getting it". Many of us have even come to accept that some cachers cannot simply ignore puzzle caches, which they have little interest in solving, and feel that the "rules" allow them to make a legitimate find, creator's intentions be damned.

Yet, even then, these players have an opportunity to stay in the good graces of puzzle owners and it's so easy that I don't understand why more power cachers don't do it, especially when a power cacher's manner of caching becomes readily apparent in their logs and the geocaching community forms an impression of the their style. We don't operate in a bubble and every log builds on the previous – we are a curious lot and like to know who's logging our caches. Add on a few forum posts bolstering the first impression and it becomes indelible and hard to erase.

I'm no authority and If I claim to be a wise man, well.... All I can do is suggest two simple and obvious guidelines.

First, please ASK the PUZZLE OWNER for help, before going down any other route. If they are unresponsive (and please give us a day or two since many of us are not as active as we once were and it might take a few days), then reach out to previous finders.

Second, cache in whatever manner makes you happy, especially if it means getting out with family and friends. But, if you must log a puzzle without understanding how it works, than at least save face and say as much in your "found it" log. Few seem to appreciate how much better the impression left when a log looks like this "loved the idea of your puzzle and even though I didn't fully solve it, I did learn something and that made it worth the visit" rather than a hollow copy/paste log like "loved your cache, thanks for putting it out", which communicates the exact opposite.

Most of all, enjoy yourself and try not to get too worked up in here. Most of us become accustomed over time to the machinations of the sport and its players, but even the old Buddha's like Zuma, who teach tolerance and understanding, can reach a tipping point where the irritation becomes too itchy to ignore and need to get it out.


Great post. The last sentence made me laugh, and yes I believe in tolerance and understanding.

"What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Elvis Costello

Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon

And I agree with you, that those principals do not mean that folks are not irritated when our tolerance is abused and people engage in rude behavior, such as you describe and also with my pet peeve of veteran cachers posting a copy and paste log on a well thought cache that was placed with great effort and at some cost to the cache owner. Ammo boxes are $15 now, and I have hundreds of them out in the wild. A TFTC log by a newbie can best be accepted by tolerance. I still believe that. But veteran cachers should not be surprised when there is a somewhat different response when they insist on being rude in their logs over and over again.

zuma

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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

gotta run wrote:
You have mellowed in your old age, s|s... Shocked


Of that there can be little doubt. When you have a near fatal geo-heart-attack you learn to let go of the things the cause you stress. I might be more passionate if I were still as active, but I spend very little time in here or out there creating or finding caches anymore, due in no small part to all the irritating practices this thread touches on. The further away one is the easier it is to shrug off and not sweat it. Don't get me wrong, this stuff irritates me as much as it ever did, I just throw some "whatever" ointment on it and the itch fades away.
 
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Walkingadventure
WGA President
WGA President



Joined: 2009-05-06
Posts: 2778
Location: Neenah

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Glad to see someone blew the dust off you s|s and I appreciate your outlook from "a couple steps away."

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Signals from space make me wander in circles

The posts and opinions shared here are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the beliefs of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:
gotta run wrote:
You have mellowed in your old age, s|s... Shocked
The further away one is the easier it is to shrug off and not sweat it. Don't get me wrong, this stuff irritates me as much as it ever did, I just throw some "whatever" ointment on it and the itch fades away.


I hear ya man. Ah course, when ya get a team that goes outta der way to rub der cachin opinion in yer face, ya gotta be expected ta fire a broadside in return, en so?
 
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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:49 am Reply with quote Back to top

As Seldom|seen said"First, please ASK the PUZZLE OWNER for help, before going down any other route. If they are unresponsive (and please give us a day or two since many of us are not as active as we once were and it might take a few days), then reach out to previous finders. "
The puzzle solvers try to figure out and when the CO is unresponsive they turn to me(why?). The biggest problem is when a puzzle is unsolvable as is. To use a loose example, one puzzle asks for one thing. The puzzle theme gives you a clue to what your really looking for, but they want something that technically not the answer. Another loose example, is when the CO points to many possible answers(A=Z) and none of them are right. With those I have played battleship.

speaking of battleship, firing a broadside in return is very immature. a very wise person once said forgive and you shall be forgiven.

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huffinpuffin2
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-17
Posts: 2648
Location: Puffindoofer

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

Not knowing the specifics, but curious as heck, and knowing that many tough puzzles appear unsolvable until solved, we'd like a crack at the unsolvable......can you share, either here or via pm? Thanks! Smile Smile
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

Hardinfam wrote:
The puzzle solvers try to figure out and when the CO is unresponsive they turn to me(why?).


Oooh! Oooh! I know the answer! Because you keep the database of puzzle solutions that were given to you!

What do I win?
 
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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

Ang!! Wrong answer gotta run, thanks for playing. Here is your box of rice a roni.

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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:07 am Reply with quote Back to top

Ah dang! But I "deserve" a prize anyway....
 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8237
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:17 am Reply with quote Back to top

What's the going rate for a puzzle database of valid solves? Is this a cash basis, swap scenario, or some blended alternative?

I have a database with 800+ puzzle solves complete with final coords and the detailed solve notes. I'm thinking this might be worth selling on the open market to help offset the gas expense I incur while caching. If I include the earthcaches, virtuals, multis, etc. there are another 200+ caches included that could easily be shortcut for a quick smiley also.

Disclaimer: As a techie I define a database as something more than a simple spreadsheet/listing with rows/columns of caches w/ coordinates.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

I think you have to sell your pride and integrity to get it CJ.
 
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Hardinfam
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-11
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

Gotta run eat your rice a roni.


$2,000,000 an answer but no one is buying. Why? It seems cheap to me.

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Walkingadventure
WGA President
WGA President



Joined: 2009-05-06
Posts: 2778
Location: Neenah

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I have gift cards to a Starry place, will that get me the "nonexistant" list?
It may put me in a Hole but it'll be worth it.

I have a list of 4224 traditional solves I'll offer up for almost anything. PM me and I'll help you out.

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Signals from space make me wander in circles

The posts and opinions shared here are solely that of the individual and do not reflect the beliefs of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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