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f1rebirds
WGA Member



Joined: Feb 22, 2012
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

Seems like a lot of Gamesmanship and possibly beyond going on this year.

I believe sometimes mistakes are made and this is understandable, but some of the things Iíve seen and heard this year make me question the integrity of some players.

Not saying I donít practice a bit of Gamesmanship myself, but stay within the rules and past accepted practices.

Just saying, things donít go unnoticed and it helps me to judge what acceptable practices are and how I play the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesmanship

Thanks,
F1rebirds Very Happy
 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8223
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Exactly why I quit playing the LCG. I look at the list when it comes out each cycle to see what's out there, but based on what I've seen in the last 1 1/2 years I decided to quit playing the game. I've witnessed multiple instances that appear to be outright "cheating" (a step worse than gamemanship) based on my observations (both in person and via others).

The intention of the game is great and I think Wisconsin caching is better because of it. Unfortunately as soon as you attach a "score" to something, it appears some people will do almost anything to "beat" their perceived "competition".
 
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beccaday
WGA Secretary
WGA Secretary



Joined: 2010-09-22
Posts: 3659
Location: Waukesha

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:14 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Not sure exactly what you're referencing as I've never been competitive with the LCG, just play for fun. It really is a shame when the rules get twisted and the fun gets spoiled, in any game really. But if you keep your focus on the reason behind the game I'm sure you'll come out of your experiences with a good feeling and you'll have helped some caches and cache owners that may be feeling neglected, even if your points aren't the highest. Happy caching!

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Not all who wander are lost, some are geocaching.

Disclaimer: This post and the contents of any links or images attached is the opinion of this poster and not that of the WGA or its Board of Directors. 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6057
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

f1rebirds wrote:
Seems like a lot of Gamesmanship and possibly beyond going on this year.

I believe sometimes mistakes are made and this is understandable, but some of the things Iíve seen and heard this year make me question the integrity of some players.

Not saying I donít practice a bit of Gamesmanship myself, but stay within the rules and past accepted practices.

Just saying, things donít go unnoticed and it helps me to judge what acceptable practices are and how I play the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesmanship

Thanks,
F1rebirds Very Happy


please contact me or Team Deejay regarding this.

_________________
Operor vel Operor Non , Illic Est Haud Tendo

All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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BigJim60
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-01-02
Posts: 7211
Location: Auburndale, WI

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure what f1rebirds is referring to, but then I don't play the game to win, I play the game to help keep good caches in the game and get bad caches out of the game. I know that the idea behind a point system is to appeal to the competitive side to encourage more players to visit these caches, but I find that I get more out of the game by seeking those caches that are seldom visited.

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BigJim
There are three kinds of people in this world ... the wee, the not-so-wee, and the frickin huge. 
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Mister Greenthumb
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-03
Posts: 2689

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:26 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It seems like the longer the LCG goes on the more it loses focus on why it was ever implemented. There are no winners in geocaching. If you want to win take up golf or bowling.
 
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hack1of2
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-11-30
Posts: 1075
Location: Wauwatosa, WI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

Mister Greenthumb wrote:
There are no winners in geocaching. If you want to win take up golf or bowling.

Not true. I love to golf but I still never win. Cool
 
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Todd300




Joined: 2009-06-05
Posts: 2461
Location: Menominee, MI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

Mister Greenthumb wrote:
It seems like the longer the LCG goes on the more it loses focus on why it was ever implemented. There are no winners in geocaching. If you want to win take up golf or bowling.



Like
 
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WStemple
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-06-23
Posts: 508
Location: Out on the trails.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

I am also not aware of what 'cheating' is being pointed out. I can say that I try to play the game, but there are not that many 'targets' down in my area. I believe that is due to population denisity, etc.
 
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Todd300




Joined: 2009-06-05
Posts: 2461
Location: Menominee, MI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

Geocaching is a hobby. It is not a game. The whole point of the LCG is to keep caches not found in a while remain active. So what if some unnamed individual appears to be cheating.


If we had some lonelys in my area that I've never found, I'd participate. But for the most part, I have not had an opportunity to get out and find a lonely.


For those of you who quit doing lonelys, that's a shame. You need to at least find them in your area and make sure those lonelys are still there or log the dnf so the CO knows it was visited.


I was gonna check on one of Bartrod's lonelys last week and get a few revisit points, but he already performed maintenance on it plus HP2 found it shortly after, so there was no need for me to check on it and get the revisit points. The cache was already verified present.


The point is, it is all about having fun with this hobby. But some people take it so damn seriously.


Lighten up.
 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8223
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

By definition the LCG is a game. In fact "Game" is right in the title "Lonely Cache Game".

The game is based on a series of "tasks" undertaken by the various participants that are then reported and tracked via a website. The problem is the individual tasks completed are "on your honor".

One potential scenario for "gamemanship" would be for a single cacher to sign the name of multiple individuals (or sign a group signature) to a lonely cache log sheet. This is then reported on gc.com as a find by each individual account and also on this website for the points in the game. The problem is there's no way for anyone to verify anything other than the admins can check to ensure each account also logged it as a find.

Another potential scenario for "gamemanship" would be pre-dating a signature on the log a couple days before the lonely would get extra points. The finder could wait with logging it and claim 2x points.

Prizes / Awards / Bragging Rights could easily be an incentive for people to cheat, bend the rules, etc. Because most of the process is based on "on your honor" there are many opportunities for dishonesty and gamemanship. Considering it's a game with a very small set of rules, there are numerous opportunities for various levels of "gamemanship".

I think the LCG is a great concept and certainly wouldn't want to see it abandonded because it adds great value to the hobby as a whole. I also may / may not seek out "lonelies", but choose not to play the game portion any longer by claiming the points on this website. This is not much different than others I know that geocache, but never log anything online to track their progress (i.e. the numbers truly don't matter to these people and there are more than you think that do this)
 
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isjustus4
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-07-03
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

1st, well thought out post.

CodeJunkie wrote:

One potential scenario for "gamemanship" would be for a single cacher to sign the name of multiple individuals (or sign a group signature) to a lonely cache log sheet. This is then reported on gc.com as a find by each individual account and also on this website for the points in the game. The problem is there's no way for anyone to verify anything other than the admins can check to ensure each account also logged it as a find.


I've seen, and have pictures of logbooks, that lead me to believe there is possible shenanigans going on.


CodeJunkie wrote:

Another potential scenario for "gamemanship" would be pre-dating a signature on the log a couple days before the lonely would get extra points. The finder could wait with logging it and claim 2x points.


That is a real possibility. Don't think that I would want to leave potential proof of something like that. It would be pretty hard to explain something like that. I've also gone out for caches at midnight to look for interesting things like that. Just did it, actually, went out for a cache to find after midnight(intentionally) for double points. Couple actually, and turns out one was found bright and early the next day. Player claimed double points as I hadn't posted my log, or points. Rules state, I have 7 days to log, gamesmanship guidelines show I have longer. If I saw a known LCG players name on the log, I wouldn't try to claim double.

2 more situations come to mind. I found a Year old cache, couple hours later, another team found it. Claimed 2x points. Make the story short, cacher friend dated the log 12 instead of 13. I may have "played" the game the same. No harm, no foul. ie:gamesmanship! Screw up was on us for dating the log wrong.

Recently, I found a cache that wasn't supposed to be year old. No name on the log to go with the online log. Snapped pics, claimed year. Right, wrong, doesn't matter. People mess up field notes some times. (Recent updates to the iphone app have screwed mine up, mostly dates when storing for short period of time.) Emails after the log, and submission prove otherwise. But, submission was in, and picture proof was there.

CodeJunkie wrote:

Prizes / Awards / Bragging Rights could easily be an incentive for people to cheat, bend the rules, etc. Because most of the process is based on "on your honor" there are many opportunities for dishonesty and gamemanship. Considering it's a game with a very small set of rules, there are numerous opportunities for various levels of "gamemanship".


I think that the implement of the monthly prize may have something to do with it. Haven't seen so many people play this game for a while. Lot of names on the board submitting points.

I truly enjoy the game. Mostly for helping me find really cool spots to go caching, that aren't for the PnG crowd.

Even before I played the LCG, I watched the map. I'd even make it a point to go hit lonelies before they got to a year old, just so they didn't. Also, If I came across caches(mostly puzzles around here) in the area that were going to be on the next list, I'd do the same.

CodeJunkie wrote:

I think the LCG is a great concept and certainly wouldn't want to see it abandonded because it adds great value to the hobby as a whole. I also may / may not seek out "lonelies", but choose not to play the game portion any longer by claiming the points on this website. This is not much different than others I know that geocache, but never log anything online to track their progress (i.e. the numbers truly don't matter to these people and there are more than you think that do this)


I agree. And, sounds like my old style of play might be right up your alley!

I'll also agree with Todd, it is all about having fun. Cool So, get out there, and have some!
 
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huffinpuffin2
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-17
Posts: 2645
Location: Puffindoofer

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:24 pm Reply with quote Back to top

isjustus4 wrote:
. . . I've also gone out for caches at midnight to look for interesting things like that. Just did it, actually, went out for a cache to find after midnight(intentionally) for double points. Couple actually, and turns out one was found bright and early the next day. Player claimed double points as I hadn't posted my log, or points. . . .


We recently did just this, at a cache that was previously found and signed by yourself and F1rebirds. We had no intent to take any points away from you, as the way the game has been played, as long as we can recall, is to award the same amount of points to all who find it on that same day. The rationale, we thought, was to discourage the need to camp out until the stroke of midnight, and keep the game an enjoyable and rewarding activity that can be pursued at a more leisurely pace.
 
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isjustus4
WGA Member



Joined: 2010-07-03
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

huffinpuffin2 wrote:

We recently did just this, at a cache that was previously found and signed by yourself and F1rebirds. We had no intent to take any points away from you, as the way the game has been played, as long as we can recall, is to award the same amount of points to all who find it on that same day. The rationale, we thought, was to discourage the need to camp out until the stroke of midnight, and keep the game an enjoyable and rewarding activity that can be pursued at a more leisurely pace.


I wasn't pointing fingers, just general discussion/observations. Didn't know that was accepted practice. I'm good with claiming points that way, now knowing it's OK.

Of course, I don't mind caching in the middle of the night once in a great while. Walking around in the dark is good for some of the other senses! Or why I like night caches, or, well you get the idea.

Leisurely pace, what's that? Not enough hours in the day!
 
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CodeJunkie
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-07-21
Posts: 8223
Location: Berlin, WI

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I interpret (interpret being the "key" word here) the rules to note that the first cacher or group of cachers on a day to get the 2x points. I would assume that 2 people finding it at different times on the same day would not both get double points, but only the first to sign the log.
Quote:
6.b.2.d
If two teams find a cache at the same time, both teams are eligible for the bonus.

My assumption is that if the condition is not met the second cacher does not get the points.

Another opportunity for "gamemanship" would be if you found it the same day another cacher found it, but you knew they didn't play the LCG. Nobody would be any the wiser about who logged it when and there would only be 1 claim for it.
 
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