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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:49 pm Reply with quote Back to top

What does zuma have in common with Marc54140????


Lyme's

Pulled off an engorged deer tick last Friday, and got a rash, headache, etc by Wednesday. Started antibiotics immediately Wednesday.

Interestingly, a search of the web, confirmed by my MD, is that if ya get a tick bite, you can take a single double dose of doxycycline immmediately before symptoms develop as prophylaxis against developing Lymes from that tick bite. He even gave me a few extra for the next bite.

You should check with your doctor, but it seems reasonable for geocachers to have a lil doxycycline on hand so you can take a dose when ya get a deer tick bite, if ya expect to be out in the woods a lot.

Also interestingly, I was in Iowa last weekend, and there is nearly no ticks down there, and the reported incidence of Lymes is very low in Iowa.

zuma

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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K0rpl
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-05-04
Posts: 2834
Location: Green Bay, WI USA

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Good to know. Thanks for the heads up Zuma....

Justin
 
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Pateryalsa
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-15
Posts: 27
Location: Madison, WI, USA

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Ugh. I have yet to get bit and have only ever found 1 (probably) wood tick on my clothes. I'm creeped out by the idea of finding it after it has bitten lol (or finding one on my kids! EEK)

Good to know this, though!

Speaking of them, what IS the best way to remove one? I have heard all kinds of things, wondering what actually works (you know, in case it DOES happen)

You wouldn't know it, but I grew up in the country... I just never got ticked Wink Now mosquitoes and bees....
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Just pull it out, but mack sure you get all of it.

Not sure, but maybe we are in between waves of them. Was out 2 day ago and pulled a hundred of me and the dogs. Was out tonight and pulled of just a few.
 
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GeoPink
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-11-01
Posts: 1682
Location: Manitowoc, WI

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
...it seems reasonable for geocachers to have a lil doxycycline on hand so you can take a dose...


Spoken like a true medical professional. Laughing I have a hard time keeping on hand, something I can't even begin to pronounce!

I'll have to go bug my brother-in-law, the pharmacist, and he can tell me what it is and where to get it...

Then again, maybe I'll just wait until I get bit, first.

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RSplash40
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-23
Posts: 6259

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

leemme see

dock-see-sigh-clean ?

How'd I do zuma?

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Jeremy
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 3251
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry to hear about your illness Ralph.

zuma wrote:
Interestingly, a search of the web, confirmed by my MD, is that if ya get a tick bite, you can take a single double dose of doxycycline immmediately before symptoms develop as prophylaxis against developing Lymes from that tick bite. He even gave me a few extra for the next bite.


I have also heard information to this effect. My question for the medical folks is, does it have to be doxycycline or will any antibiotic work? I did have a deer tick on me following the campout and took some old amoxicillin that I had around immediately. So far (knock on wood), no symptoms. (But I could also have some immunity due to past exposure to Lyme's.)

Pateryalsa wrote:
Speaking of them, what IS the best way to remove one? I have heard all kinds of things, wondering what actually works (you know, in case it DOES happen)


Get yourself one of these tick remover devices aka "a tick spoon". If you are careful you can use the same removal technique with a pair of tweezers, but these things are much easier to use. This part of the jumbo thread stealers topic has a discussion of these devices and Lyme's.
 
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elfdoctors
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-10-31
Posts: 417
Location: Grantsburg

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

With early detection, and appropriate treatment, Lyme disease has a very good cure rate. Here is a summary of the new guidelines from the Infectious Disease Society of America which were only released last fall: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/545601

Quote:
You should check with your doctor, but it seems reasonable for geocachers to have a lil doxycycline on hand so you can take a dose when ya get a deer tick bite, if ya expect to be out in the woods a lot.


The guidelines do not support this. Here is a quote from the guidelines: "To prevent LD after a recognized tick bite, routine use of antimicrobial prophylaxis or serologic testing is not recommended. A single dose of doxycycline (200 mg) may be given to adults and to children at least 8 years of age (4 mg/kg up to a maximum dose of 200 mg) if all of the following circumstances exist: (1) the attached tick can be reliably identified as an adult or nymphal I. scapularis estimated to have been attached for at least 36 hours; (2) prophylaxis can be started within 72 hours of tick removal; (3) ecologic information indicates that the local rate of infection of these ticks with B. burgdorferi is at least 20%; and (4) doxycycline is not contraindicated."

For geocachers or anyone else with high risk occupations or hobbies, I have a very low threshold for using antibiotics, but I always wait for symptoms except for the relatively rare situation in which someone presents with a tick bite which has been reliably present for more than 36 hours. Alternatively, if another condition also exists which could also be treated (e.g. acne or rosacea in which doxycycline taken once daily is one of the appropriate treatments) I will occasionally prescribe doxycycline to do double duty here. The only prevalence data that I am aware of showed that 70% of ticks in Fort McCoy were infected with Lyme. Areas of the state such as Burnett (where I live) and Washburn counties which have been consistently either #1 or #2 in Lyme disease risk for the last several years probably have higher rates. Fortunately, even if the tick is infected, the disease is not easily transmitted as most estimates only put the risk of Lyme at 3% after a bite from an infected tick.

Here is a link which even includes a map with relative risks in each county of Wisconsin. http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/communicable/LymeDisease/pdffiles/Lyme2006summary.pdf

Quote:
My question for the medical folks is, does it have to be doxycycline or will any antibiotic work?


It is very easy to use chemoprophylaxis with doxycycline in a single dose as zuma described. This is inexpensive and usually well tolerated. Here's another quote from the first link:
The guidelines do not recommend substituting amoxicillin for doxycycline in persons for whom doxycycline prophylaxis is contraindicated unless a higher infection rate was documented in specific local areas.

Some people are unable to tolerate doxycycyline. In my experience true allergies to doxycycline are rare as most are only sensitivities (nausea or diarrhea). Many people with "allergies" are still often able to tolerate doxycycline when needed for other more serious tick borne illnesses such as ehrlichiosis/anaplasmosis (for which we know that most other antibiotics will NOT work). If another antibiotic has to be substituted, single dose treatments cannot be done.

Sorry for the technical lingo. Embarassed I know different opinions are very common from different groups, but IMO these guidelines are the best.
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 6023
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

Trekkin' is still waiting for the results of his Lyme's test, but he has been treated two times before this (and before geocaching, he's also a historical trekker). The second time around, they gave him the prophylaxis, but this time they want to wait for the test, I guess. I know that the medical profession has moved toward less routine prescribing of antibiotics to avoid the development of "superbugs." I have good friends whose state cross country running son spent 17 days in the hospital as a result of an antibiotic resistant strain of pneumonia.

Trekkin' is actually allergic to penicillin, and tells me that as a kid, anytime he was sick, the doctors would give him penicillin. It is a wonder drug, but like any wonder, it needs to be used judiciously. Hopefully we'll have test results soon.

Right now, he's a pretty sick puppy. No caching for us for awhile, I guess!

Get well, everyone.

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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Trekkin' and Birdin' wrote:
Trekkin' is still waiting for the results of his Lyme's test, but he has been treated two times before this (and before geocaching, he's also a historical trekker). The second time around, they gave him the prophylaxis, but this time they want to wait for the test, I guess. I know that the medical profession has moved toward less routine prescribing of antibiotics to avoid the development of "superbugs." I have good friends whose state cross country running son spent 17 days in the hospital as a result of an antibiotic resistant strain of pneumonia.

Trekkin' is actually allergic to penicillin, and tells me that as a kid, anytime he was sick, the doctors would give him penicillin. It is a wonder drug, but like any wonder, it needs to be used judiciously. Hopefully we'll have test results soon.

Right now, he's a pretty sick puppy. No caching for us for awhile, I guess!

Get well, everyone.


Perhaps, elfdoctor can comment on this, but my reading about Lyme's suggests that the test for Lyme's is not very reliable. There is a very high incidence of both false positives and false negatives. Part of that is related to possibly getting the titer drawn quickly after the bite, before antibodies have reached a threshhold that can be detected. Also part of it is related to testing people who have been exposed in the past and who have antibodies present, but have no acute infection. I discussed what I had read along those lines with my MD, and he agreed that the Lyme's test is not really worth the money for it, in many cases, including mine, and that it seemed reasonable to go on history and symtoms alone.

However, I claim no expertise in this area, and if anyone has better data, I would be interested in hearing it.

zuma

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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elfdoctors
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-10-31
Posts: 417
Location: Grantsburg

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:46 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Lyme testing has come a long way. However, it is still an inexact science. Results are very iffy for the first month after infection. You can diagnose Lyme this way but there will be many false negatives. If someone has a flu-like illness or an unexplained rash during the summer months with a history of tick exposure, treatment should begin without waiting for the lab test.

If someone has had symptoms for six weeks or more and has a negative Lyme test, I have been told that the false negative rate for the test in this situation is less than 1%.

The false positive rate has been dramatically reduced with the use of Western Blot confirmation of Elisa positives. However, while people can clearly get Lyme more than once, their blood tests will often remain positive. This tends to be the most common way that false positives will occur. False positives can also occur in certain diseases such as Lupus in which many abnormal antibodies have developed. The state requires people to have appropriate symptoms as Lyme can no longer be diagnosed based solely on a positive blood test.
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 6023
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

He's got the symptoms, for sure, minus the rash. He has had these fever spikes for three days now, breaks out in a sweat, then gets chills. Joints ache, headache (but not screaming like in meningitis). He thought he was feeling better this afternoon, but crashed in the evening again. Caching tomorrow seems doubtful at this point.

Although he felt the doctor was very thorough, it was not our own family physician, who is well aware of our tendency to be out in the brush. When our younger son was a toddler, we were pretty sure he had Lyme, and called to bring him in. The nurse wouldn't let us, she figured it was chicken pox. No way, if you'd seen this rash, you'd know that wasn't it!

Anyway, the doctor had overheard the conversation, asked who'd called, and called us right back to bring him in. Highest titer in LaCrosse County up to that point, poor kiddo. So far, I'm the only family member who hasn't been treated for it. I am always concerned because I have fibromyalgia, which means a normal state of aches and pains. I don't even pay much attention to them anymore, because it's just part of me. It's caused me to be momentarily tricked when I had influenza, so it could do the same for lyme. Actually, my diagnosis came by default when I had gone in many years ago because I thought I had lyme. They tested for that and everything else along those lines, all of which came back negative. I had the pressure points for fibro as well.

It's too bad we aren't all 20 anymore, huh? Rolling Eyes

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Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

I friend of my grandfather's, who was an avid outdoors man, had Lyme's for 10 years be for the diagnosed it. His whole personality changed.

I do not remember why, but for some reason, they ran the test, cam back positive. They started treating him and in 2 days he snapped out of his 10 year funk he was in. He was reclusive, didn't want to out in public. He had stopped hunting and fishing and just moped around. This from a guy who was a State Forester for 30+ years. His last few years of living thou were good to him. He died at the age of 89 or something like that.
 
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Timberline Echoes
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-07-25
Posts: 2081
Location: Eagle River, WI, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We have had 3 friends diagnosed with MS that later on ended up being Lymes and after proper treatment all the MS symptoms were gone, including partial paralysis, tremors and weak muscles.
TE
 
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kent1915
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-05-19
Posts: 143
Location: Eau Claire, WI USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

GeoBokie picked it up a couple years ago. Wicked bullseye rash, aches, etc. Nice course of antibiotics and he is as normal as my number one child can be... Wink
 
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