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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

I'm reposting this question on the Help forum so more cachers can join in on the thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Yawningdog:
Regarding Steve's last posting;
I've been considering something very similar to what, I believe, he was alluding to in his message. I have, sitting next to me right now, my next cache container. It includes some moderately valuable items that fit a theme that I plan to attribute to the hunt and they may temp an unscrupulous hunter to clean out the container. In the past, I had a very unhappy experience when I placed a cache called "Collectables Cache" and one of the groups who visited it helped themselves to everything of any value in the container replaced them with things like cigarettes and condoms. These items did not fit the theme I had intended, to say the least Image
Anyway, this time I am considering placing the cache and then immediately archiving it and allowing the hunt by invitation only. For obvious reasons, I am struggling with the possible ramifications. Will I, and those I invite to the hunt, be seen as elitists? Am I hurting the sport by not being inclusive, even though I may put the future of the hunt itself at risk? Am I truly an insipid bozo for making caches with contents that don't just come out of my kitchen junk drawer?

What do you guys think?



 
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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:37 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Yawningdog:
...this time I am considering placing the cache and then immediately archiving it and allowing the hunt by invitation only. For obvious reasons, I am struggling with the possible ramifications. Will I, and those I invite to the hunt, be seen as elitists...

What do you guys think?



YD, a couple of ideas:
1) CacheBarr recently placed a cache on the Lake Geneva shorepath with 4 'gifts' for the first 4 finders that are rather nice. Their stated intention is to refill the cache once they are gone. You could likewise start the cache with a limited number of items, so if the contents are swiped its not as big a loss. As cachers trade, that number should remian constant, but if the cache is close enough to your home, you could seed it from time to time.

2) Place at the cache co-ordinates a tag like Artopsy uses that has a code-word on it. The cacher must then e-Mail you that code word along with their team name. Once you receive the correct code-word, you email them via geocaching.com e-Mail system the true final co-ordiantes of the cache container. If they give you a fake teamname, the email to them will fail and they won't know the location of the 'treasure'. If it is valid, and the content's come up missing right after they hunt it, then you have their identity and Jeremy can take steps. You could also check their team name out on geocaching.com to see how many finds/hides they have. You would have to mention on the cache page that how this cache works so that folks won't be upset that they can't complete it in one day, (which by definition I believe makes this a level 4 or 5 difficulty cache). You could even offer them the right to log a find just on the tag if they didn't want to go after the treasure, or if you didn't trust them.
 
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sbukosky
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 644
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I like CC's second idea.

Did you follow the cache in Illinois named "Integrity"? It started with $100 and ended up with something like $135. Lots of publicity so we were all impressed that it wasn't taken through the month.

I suppose another way of looking at limited access (private) caches would be that they are a premium. I have mixed feelings about private caches on public land but they allow private picnics too. At least I get chased out when I wander in looking for public food and beer. Image

------------------
Steve Bukosky
Waukesha
 
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Thraxman
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-23
Posts: 395
Location: Janesville, WI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 5:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe nobody will like this idea... BUT... here goes...

Ceate a website called www.progeocaching.com

Membership to this site would have fairly strict requirements (Possibilities would include finding at least 25 caches from geocaching.com, prior attendance at some geocaching event or gathering, anything that shows a potential member is a bona-fide geocacher, and not just some dirtbag out to ruin people's fun or raid valuable caches).

This site would be for posting caches with higher than normal value, like YDs Collecable Cache. (Heck, didn't cachecow's You Are What You Eat cache contain over 100 bucks worth of fast food certificates?)

We could rest a little easier knowing that only experienced and well-intentioned cachers have access to these caches... and we could change the rules a bit in the process... For exapmle: in addition to the standard Hide-then post-then let'er rip cache, "event" cache launches could be introduced. I envision this as a cache that is pre-announced... say two weeks in advance, or whatever. Anyone who plans on hunting that cache on "opening day" would pre-register... then at say 8am in the morning on that cache's opening day... the co-ordinates are released to the participants... and they can all head out at about the same time to find it Image End result would be that a) valuables would not remain in the cache long b)excellent chance of cachers meeting on the hunt and c) wel, I have no "c" at the moment. But anyhow many things could be done with this simple concept. With a little fancy coding, or human intervention, a handicapping feature could be implemented giving people who live farther from the cache the info an hour or two earlier. Some caches could be pay or "cash caches", in which hunters could send in, say, 10 bucks at the time they register for a hunt, with the money to be DIRECTLY invested into the cache contents by the cache placer (I am not talking charge-for-profit here). Because of the elevated level of hunters hitting the cache within a few hours' time, co-ordinates of a meeting place and time could also be included inside the cache. After "opening day", the cache co-ordinates could be posted so that any member can hunt it as a normal cache (maybe a week later?)

Anyhow, those are just a few ideas off the top of my head for www.progeocaching.com... anybody think the idea has any merit?

 
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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 7:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Wow! Some intriguing ideas in that post!

First the negatives: I, for one, can see the 'J-Man' having the same response to www.progeocaching.com as he did to Buxley et. al. (Jeremy, if you're reading this, tell me I'm wrong, that you wouldn't be at least upset by this idea). Having just gone up against him in the Battle of the Scripts, I'm not inclined to do it again so soon Image

Now the positives: I love the idea of pre-announcnments and 'Grand Openings', and the handicapping is a cool idea too. Plus the access to certain caches only by known entities has major merit.

My suggestions: What if Thrax's idea was overt as in progeocaching.com, but rather done at the local or state wide level covertly. Like a private club that is by invitation only? A hidden site for those in the know...

kbraband, I'm really interested in your take here, as I know you are sensitive to the issue of 'elitism' and the rights of everyone to cache. I view this concept as a 'next level' of caching. Everyone has the right to cache, but in addition there is 'private' caching.
 
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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 8:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by CacheCows:
kbraband, I'm really interested in your take here, as I know you are sensitive to the issue of 'elitism' and the rights of everyone to cache. I view this concept as a 'next level' of caching. Everyone has the right to cache, but in addition there is 'private' caching.


I don't have a problem with the concept as long as it's done in a way that doesn't exclude "public" cachers. Of course, anyone is free to invite his or her buddies to a private unpublicized cache. However, WGA shouldn't become a sanctioning body of such caches, IMHO. Here's a thought. Maybe you could post the announcement here in the WGA forums but stress that it is not a WGA or geocaching.com sanctioned event. Then eveyone who wanted to participate could do so by signing up ahead of time at the designated web site. They would have to give their name, address, etc. to sign up. This would cull out the yahoos who might want to anonymously plunder the cache.
 
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Thraxman
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-23
Posts: 395
Location: Janesville, WI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 9:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by kbraband:
I don't have a problem with the concept as long as it's done in a way that doesn't exclude "public" cachers. Of course, anyone is free to invite his or her buddies to a private unpublicized cache.


I had actually covered that in my origianal post kind of... I said that a short time after "opening day", after the valuable cache has essentially become a standard cache, it could be posted as a normal cache for all to hunt.

I don't really view this as elitism, although I can see how it *could* be viewed that way. I see it simply as a way to temporarily protect "high-value" caches for a short period of time from the few who are less than honorable in their intentions, and to add a new, fun element to the pass-time.

It is a major bummer when somebody like YD has a great cache like Collectables Cache, sacrificing many valuable items, only to have it plundered. For me, most of the fun is the drive, hike and hunt. Trading prizes adds to the fun, but all I really need to find is a log-book, and I am happy. But I'd be lying is I said I would have zero interest in finding something of value from time to time, and I bet most people would agree. Last summer, I had an Idea to place "Silver Cache"... a cache stocked with a few hundred dollars worth of silver boullion, in varying sizes, with instructions for the first finder to grab the big bar, the next 3 or for to each grab the next largest, etc. Of course, I definatly did not place such a cache because the plunder of YD's cache came to mind over and over again.

The idea of those who can't officially register to tag along with registered "procachers" is a fine one. It could actually be posted that "Tag-alongs" can contact anyone who IS registered and join the hunt with them... and after a couple hunts like that, there would be no reason they COULDN'T register, as the whole idea is just to make sure the person(s) is real, and is likely to play by the rules, etc.
 
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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I keep meaning to get out to 'You Are What You Eat' to swap out the container, but haven't made it yet. I don't know what condition the food coupons are in, but Thrax is right, it started with $70 or so in coupons.

We are planing a level 4.5-5 for Spring, which will start with $110 in it (we were hunting our 110th cache when we got the idea). This is to be an incentive for it to be hunted, but will be for just the first finder. So pilfering won't be an issue, once the cash is gone, its just a regular cache.

[This message has been edited by CacheCows (edited February 23, 2002).]
 
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sbukosky
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 644
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think a little too much importance can be place on first finds. I had my fill of that while hidden transmitter hunting. Or like what orienteering has become from what it was taught to me back in my Scouting days. I'd hate to see Geocaching become a foot race and a knock-down drag-out fight to be first.
 
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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 11:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sbukosky,

One of the things I find cool about geocaching is that there are so many ways to 'play' the game. If you are into first finds, it can be played that way. If into scores, you can go for finds. If into creativity, you can put an emphasis on hiding over finding. If into woods, or urban, or rock climbing, or water, there are caches suited to every terrain there is.

Its cool that no one has to get forced into only one way to play, there are so many options! The way the sport/hobby is growing, I don't think we have to worry too much about the focus narrowing into one way to play Image
 
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Thraxman
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-23
Posts: 395
Location: Janesville, WI

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2002 12:14 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by sbukosky:
I think a little too much importance can be place on first finds. I had my fill of that while hidden transmitter hunting. Or like what orienteering has become from what it was taught to me back in my Scouting days. I'd hate to see Geocaching become a foot race and a knock-down drag-out fight to be first.


Actually, you kind of hinted at my next idea... "Full Contact Caching". Participants will wear standard Hockey or Football gear...

Seriously, Geocahing can be an enjoyable passtime at so many levels. The most basic and most popular is probably just the hike/hunt. Next, I know I am not the only one who gets a kick out of being the first to a cache, although I rarely knock myself out to BE the first. But I will tell you this... I have discovered something very very neat... If you go to hunt a cache on the first day or so that it is posted, you stand a good chance of meeting a fellow cacher at the cache! I have only logged 45 finds so far, but I have actually met other cachers on 4 of those hunts, and of those 4 hunts, three were hunts that I embarked on shortly after the thing was posted. Simply put... Finding a cache first is kinda neat, running into another cacher on the hunt is 20 times better Image And that is part of what I tried to accomplish in my hastily-thrown together concept, along with protection for the special caches... a little competition, and a lot of socializing.

5 bucks says that on the first day Alan's 110 dollar cache is posted, at least two cachers or teams will run into each other on the hunt Image


 
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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:26 am Reply with quote Back to top

Alan must have been reading my mind a couple of weeks ago (or my forum posting). I hid a cache that has a cache prize a couple of weeks ago, but I'm not going to post it for awhile -- when the marshy land thaws and the bugs come out.
 
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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2002 1:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by kbraband:
Alan must have been reading my mind a couple of weeks ago (or my forum posting). I hid a cache that has a cache prize a couple of weeks ago, but I'm not going to post it for awhile -- when the marshy land thaws and the bugs come out.

Umm, yum! Bugs and swamp land!

Is ours similier because of the cash prize, or because of the rating? We originally read about the cash prize idea on a cache out in California Arn was going to hunt last year. Thought it was a great idea as a draw, but none of our current caches warrented it. Then a couple of weeks ago, we got the idea for a new cache.

Is yours also going to be rated high, possibly because of quick-sand, man-eating bugs, or swamp creatures? That would be cool, we need some high rated caches.

I think Carpe Cache and Sam's new cache are the only 5s in the SE part of the state.

Looking forward to its release!

Ours will be high because of the length of the hike (27 miles). It might be possible to do by boat, but of course that still would make it a 5. Or it could be done in segemnts, which means overnight, so its still a 4.5-5.

It won't be worked on till probably late Spring, probably Summer before its released.

[This message has been edited by CacheCows (edited February 24, 2002).]
 
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sbukosky
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 644
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2002 4:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I've done hidden transmitter hunting since before GPS was a concept. I've seen many participants quit because the competition to be first or better than the rest caused most, and I do mean most, to quit. Fortunately with Geocaching, equipment is all pretty much on a level field. Other factors may discourage some people though. If a cache is based on the first one there getting the right to take an expensive prize, what incentive is there after that? Better would be to put something valuable in an existing cache and just anounce it through normal cache page logging. I like one where someone bought a new digital camera and said they left their old digital in the cache that they were on. At least this promotes keeping in touch with the various caches out there.

I suppose an occasional foot race to find the treasure is ok. But too much of it will just cause congestion everytime one is announced and existing caches will end up being pretty much ignored. Keep in mind that one objection some land managers have stated about us is the impact of foot traffic to the area. How do you think they would react to 50 teams of Geocachers tearing through the woods to find the gold, all at one time? Image

All this is just food for thought. I like a first find and big prize about as much as the next team. Image



------------------
Steve Bukosky
Waukesha
 
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arffer
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-17
Posts: 1375
Location: Darien, WI US

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2002 4:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by sbukosky:
...If a cache is based on the first one there getting the right to take an expensive prize, what incentive is there after that?


Perhaps the same incentive there is for every cache that doesn't have an expensive incentive?

We've hunted over a hundred caches, and not a single one had an expensive incentive, yet we hunted them. Once the expensive incentive is gone, the cache becomes just a regular cache. Why wouldn't people hunt it? The incentive is just to prime the pump...
 
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