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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

Yesterday I spent the day taking Red Cross CPR/AED & First Aid training. I took CPR and First Aid a long time ago but I had not previously taken AED (Automated External Defibrillator) training, so I felt this was a very valuable experience. Those of you in the medical profession and others of you who have AED training and/or experience also know how valuable these devices can be as a first response to sudden cardiac arrest (heart attack).

Our WGA campouts and picnics can be strenuous for geocachers who choose to look for lots of caches in a relatively short amount of time -- compounded by the fact that we often hold these events in hilly terrain. Add to that that we're sometimes miles away from the nearest town or hospital, especially when we're out on the trails. And do I need to mention that none of us are getting any younger?

Here are two suggestions: The WGA should consider purchasing an AED to have it available at all WGA-sponsored events. We should also consider hosting CPR/AED training sessions for WGA members at various locations around the state.

The price of AEDs has come way down in recent years. We could purchase one for around $1,200 to $1,400. The money could either come out of our general fund or we could start a special fund and ask for donations.
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 5745
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:34 am Reply with quote Back to top

Are there options available for renting one of these? You're right, it would probably be smart to have one available at events. Since we're relatively new to the WGA events, how many are actually held each year? Is it the campout and the fall picnic? That's why I'm wondering if a short-term rental might be available and more cost effective.

Smart idea, either way!

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Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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Jeremy
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 3249
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Good idea, but I wonder if the larger state parks already have AEDs? The rangers would have the knowledge and tools (trucks, ATVs, access to open locked gates) necessary to get a unit out to a person quickly. It is not likely that a heart attack is going to occur back at base camp (unless someone goes into shock when they learn they won a door prize or something Smile)... it will probably happen out in the most remote corner of a park.

The WGA might want to ask park officials in advance what we should do in case of various emergencies... and then prepare a mini emergency action plan so all the event organizers would know the right actions to take if something were to occur. The emergency action plan would maybe cover injuries to cachers in the field, along with what we should do in the event of severe weather, etc.
 
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Team Hemisphere Dancer
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-02-22
Posts: 2049
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I would have to second Jeremy on this one. Getting an AED is more than just purchasing one. I have purchased one for my place of employment. You will need a prescription from an MD and also a plan for training, ours is quarterly training for all that are trained on its use. Not only that the local emergency folks need to know where it is so if there is a need for its use and you can respond faster than the EMT's can get there you will be contacted to respond as part of the agreement. As much as I like the idea of having an AED as part of the WGA's toolbox at the events, there is a lot more to it than purchasing it and bringing it to the events.

Contacting the local ranger or park administrator and getting to know the emergency plan would, in my opinion be the better choice.

Another idea is to see who in the WGA is willing to serve as an emergency responder for the event and assist with the parks emergency plan as needed. Of course it would all depend upon the individuals skill and comfort level with the skills.

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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 5998
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

As a healthcare professional, I am required to renew my certification in CPR and AED proficiency every two years. My thought on the AED question is that while it would be nice to have an AED available, the problem is still "Time is Muscle". My suggestion is that each cacher get training in CPR and purchase/borrow/rent a set of two way radios (WGA does transmit and monitor during events, right?)
If someone goes down in the field, the time needed to retrieve the AED is time that should be used in providing CPR. (only if needed of course)
By having the radios available would allow rescue personnel to be summoned to the location (thats why we have GPSrs) and by having CPR training, the initial lifesaving process could be initiated.

Not saying that WGA shouldn't think about getting an AED, just that the basic CPR skills are something we should all learn, not just for caching events but for our families.

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Operor vel Operor Non , Illic Est Haud Tendo

All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3188
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

labrat_wr wrote:
Not saying that WGA shouldn't think about getting an AED, just that the basic CPR skills are something we should all learn, not just for caching events but for our families.

Yep, like Ken stated the price has really dropped on these units in the past few years so that now even many small businesses can have them.

I have gotten CPR / First Aid certified every two years for the past 10 or so...including in the use of AED's. Getting training is definitely one of the best things you can do for your family and friends.
 
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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:53 am Reply with quote Back to top

I knew we would have some experienced health care types speak up. Thanks for your input. Even if we don't look into obtaining an AED, the WGA might still look into sponsoring CPR/AED training. True, it's already available to most of us at one time or another, but WGA sponsorship would encourage more members of our organization to consider getting training and might help mitigate the cost for some.
 
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elfdoctors
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-10-31
Posts: 417
Location: Grantsburg

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I decided to pipe in.

IMO, AED's are most cost effective when you have thousands of people gathering in a limited size area. WGA events tend to be smaller and have people dispersed for much of the event.

Personally, rather than having the WGA purchase an expensive piece of equipment which would likely either not be needed or not be in the right place at the right time, I would rather have the WGA make all their events smoke-free.
 
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AuntieNae
WGA Treasurer
WGA Treasurer



Joined: 2004-04-12
Posts: 3197
Location: Waukesha/ Greenfield/ Milwaukee

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

With large group events, anything that can be done in terms of Emergency Action Planning would be a huge plus.

It might be my Aquatics background but that is always something in the back of my mind.

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Finding Flow in Nature - Earthcaches Rock!Disclaimer: This post and the contents of any links or images attached is the opinion of this poster and not that of the WGA or it\'s Board of Directors. 
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TyeDyeSkyGuy
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-03-18
Posts: 2231
Location: Kenosha, WI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

elfdoctors wrote:
I would rather have the WGA make all their events smoke-free.


VERY GOOD IDEA!

Which makes me ask the question; How many cachers are smokers? I've only met one that I know of.

Better idea. New topic posted.
 
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sweetlife
WGA Board Member
WGA Board Member



Joined: 2005-01-17
Posts: 2497
Location: Mountain, WI

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:07 am Reply with quote Back to top

Being a EMT in Northeastern Wisconsin, if anyone is volunteering to be a event medical person you should be checking with your medical director first.

EMT's and Paramedics technically do not have a medical license.

We have a medical certificate that says you can provide medical care under your Medical Directors license.

Our new medical director stated that we are not to provide medical care out of our service area. We can still do CPR and Basic First Aid, but any skills above that can not be preformed in the field anymore.

The worst thing is if we see a car accident now, and stop and help the good Samaritan law still does not cover us because we have medical training. Before the WGA has someone volunteer as emergency responder they should check with their medical director and get the blessing of the gods first.

My 2 cents worth

Barry
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sweetlife wrote:
Being a EMT in Northeastern Wisconsin, if anyone is volunteering to be a event medical person you should be checking with your medical director first.

EMT's and Paramedics technically do not have a medical license.

We have a medical certificate that says you can provide medical care under your Medical Directors license.

Our new medical director stated that we are not to provide medical care out of our service area. We can still do CPR and Basic First Aid, but any skills above that can not be preformed in the field anymore.

The worst thing is if we see a car accident now, and stop and help the good Samaritan law still does not cover us because we have medical training. Before the WGA has someone volunteer as emergency responder they should check with their medical director and get the blessing of the gods first.

My 2 cents worth

Barry


First of all, I would not worry about the Good Samaritan law at all, since it has never been tested. Wisconsin, like most states has a Good Samaritan law, which is intended to protect folks from litigation if they provide medical assistance in an emergency situation. However, the law has never been tested, and whether it applies to EMTs or Paramedics is an open question, but probably not likely due to compensation issues.

In fact, anyone can sue anyone else at any time, for anything, whether there is merit or not or whether there is legislation like the Good Samaritan law. However, the real test is what a jury would think about the circumstances. Therefore, if a health care professional stopped at a car crash and offered assistance to the best of their ability and acted in good faith, it is quite unlikely a jury would be awarding damages, no matter what the outcome. Given that, it is even less likely an attorney would take the case to press for damages. Your best defense against litigation: Do the best you can, and act in good faith.

Secondly, the issue of medical control and licensure level is not relevent, since the interventions that would be helpful in the initial stages of a medical emergency are pretty basic: stopping bleeding, opening airways, providing ventilation, spinal immobilization, and the use of an AED. Anything beyond that, can await to the arrival of EMS and transport to a hospital.

Thirdly, AEDs are intended to be used by anyone, including lay rescuers. That is why they are in airports and malls and other public places, so that anyone who has been trained can use them when the need might arise. I sure hope that EMTs dont think they cant use an AED, except under the auspices of their EMS system and their medical control, because that is not what the law was intended to mean.

zuma (ICU RN, and in a past life I taught paramedics for 10 years)

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

kbraband wrote:
I knew we would have some experienced health care types speak up. Thanks for your input. Even if we don't look into obtaining an AED, the WGA might still look into sponsoring CPR/AED training. True, it's already available to most of us at one time or another, but WGA sponsorship would encourage more members of our organization to consider getting training and might help mitigate the cost for some.


So after some discussion here, including input from a few health care professionals (thanks!), I am reposting my most previous post and making this an official suggestion to the WGA board. My concern about this stems from the fact that at each WGA event I see many people hiking up and down hills who are evidently not accustomed to strenuous exercise. Combine this with the fact that we gather a lot more geocachers together in one place than normally happens during non-event geocaching, and you have an increased risk for health emergencies. I don't want the WGA to be in a situation where we only "wish" we were better prepared.
 
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sweetlife
WGA Board Member
WGA Board Member



Joined: 2005-01-17
Posts: 2497
Location: Mountain, WI

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I was not against the WGA purchasing the AED I'm actually all for it, My concern was putting someone as "medical person" of the event, legal issues could arise from this, what happens now that you have a med person on staff and they don't respond timely??? The AED is a great idea and if we were ever at a event in Wisconsin I would have no problem using it if it was needed. I'm just looking at the legal issues of having a "medical person" noted for a event. Even being a EMT, I can do Basic First aid and CPR anywhere in the world, No medical director can take those skills away from me, But you have to look at it from my medical directors point of view, I am a EMT under his medical license and If I'm practicing emergency medicine, I technically am using his Medical License.

Its like giving your drivers license to someone else and letting them drive your car.

I would definitely vote yes to have the WGA purchase one, and since Me and Val do not hunt temp caches, we would be close to base to prob be the ones that would bring it if the time was needed. If we were at a event that had one.

Barry and Valarie of sweetlife
 
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GrouseTales
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 3399
Location: West Allis, Wi

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm enjoying this thread.

First off, I think it is a good idea that we come prepared for emergencies. As a former EMT, I've brought my trauma box and airway/oxygen kit to the WGA events. Thankfully, we have never needed it.

I'm concerned about liablility issues if we advertise that we provide medical support. If we tell people that we will provide a certain level of care, we better be well prepared.

I think a better way, perhaps, would be to develop a list of trained attendees that may be able to help during an emergency. If there was a problem, they could answer the call for help until local emergency reponders arrive.

Having an AED is a good idea, but would be a challenge for an outdoor event. It would be most useful near the base camp (shelter) where the majority of people gather. It would be hard to get the AED to the scene if someone coded out on some remote trail. If the AED were mounted on an ATV, we would have a better chance of saving a life. We need a way to get the AED into the field/woods. I wonder if the DNR would let us bring an ATV for emergency response????

Hosting a CPR training would be a great community service project!

_________________
\"There are two kinds of hunting: ordinary hunting and grouse hunting.\"
-Aldo Leopold, A sand county Almanac


Brian
Grousetales at wi<dash>geocaching{dot}com 
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