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rogheff
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-11-05
Posts: 348
Location: N42* ish x W87* ish

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

As a cacher who plays on multiple geocaching websites, I'd like to make a suggestion about the WGA "Hiding a Cache" page.

The guidelines currently are written with sole regard to www.geocaching.com rules and regulations. Many of these rules and regulations simply don't apply to all geocaching activities in Wisconsin.

If a cacher wants to place a cache on the GC.com website, their rules are clearly posted. I don't feel it's necessary to repeat them without full disclosure of other options.

Some rules are common sense safety issues (such as the railroad track rule), but there may be a cache that is perfectly acceptable that would violate that particular regulation.

The specific lines on the "Hiding a Cache" guidelines to which I refer are:

For your safety and the safety of other geocachers, the WGA asks that all geocachers placing caches in Wisconsin abide by the following rules set forth by geocaching.com and by the various local, state, and national government bodies which govern public land in Wisconsin. These rules and regulations are subject to change so please check back for any updates prior to hiding your next cache.

I don't think the WGA should declare GC.com as the sole judge of how to place a cache.


Never bury a cache. A cache is considered buried if it must be dug up by hand or by tool. Placing rocks, bark, logs etc. over a cache is not considered burial, nor is placing a cache into a naturally occurring crevice or hole. If a shovel, trowel, or other pointy object is used to dig to hide or find a cache, it's not appropriate.

While GC.com does not approve buried caches, other websites may not have such restrictions. Perhaps a Buried Treasure cache would be an exciting adventure.

When placing a cache, be sure that it is at least 528 feet (0.10 miles) away from any surrounding caches. This includes all waypoints of surrounding multi or mystery caches.

This does not apply to any website other than GC.com.

If you place a cache or a stage of a multi-cache hunt within a commercial location, keep in mind the prohibitions against commercial caches. If a fee, purchase, or solicitation (monetary or otherwise) is required to gain access to the cache or waypoint, the cache is not allowed. Caches placed to promote commercial, political, religious, or other social agendas are also disallowed.

Commercial caches are approved on other websites.

_________________
[url]www.rogheffgeocaching.homestead.com[/url]Rogheff's geocaching website

[url]www.diamondwillow.homestead.com[/url] Rogheff's Hiking Stick website
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

rogheff wrote:
As a cacher who plays on multiple geocaching websites, I'd like to make a suggestion about the WGA "Hiding a Cache" page.

The guidelines currently are written with sole regard to www.geocaching.com rules and regulations. Many of these rules and regulations simply don't apply to all geocaching activities in Wisconsin.

If a cacher wants to place a cache on the GC.com website, their rules are clearly posted. I don't feel it's necessary to repeat them without full disclosure of other options.

Some rules are common sense safety issues (such as the railroad track rule), but there may be a cache that is perfectly acceptable that would violate that particular regulation.

The specific lines on the "Hiding a Cache" guidelines to which I refer are:

For your safety and the safety of other geocachers, the WGA asks that all geocachers placing caches in Wisconsin abide by the following rules set forth by geocaching.com and by the various local, state, and national government bodies which govern public land in Wisconsin. These rules and regulations are subject to change so please check back for any updates prior to hiding your next cache.

I don't think the WGA should declare GC.com as the sole judge of how to place a cache.


Never bury a cache. A cache is considered buried if it must be dug up by hand or by tool. Placing rocks, bark, logs etc. over a cache is not considered burial, nor is placing a cache into a naturally occurring crevice or hole. If a shovel, trowel, or other pointy object is used to dig to hide or find a cache, it's not appropriate.

While GC.com does not approve buried caches, other websites may not have such restrictions. Perhaps a Buried Treasure cache would be an exciting adventure.

When placing a cache, be sure that it is at least 528 feet (0.10 miles) away from any surrounding caches. This includes all waypoints of surrounding multi or mystery caches.

This does not apply to any website other than GC.com.

If you place a cache or a stage of a multi-cache hunt within a commercial location, keep in mind the prohibitions against commercial caches. If a fee, purchase, or solicitation (monetary or otherwise) is required to gain access to the cache or waypoint, the cache is not allowed. Caches placed to promote commercial, political, religious, or other social agendas are also disallowed.

Commercial caches are approved on other websites.


Interesting suggestion. Are there people other you using non-gc.com web sites? I am not sure we would be putting out conflicting info on hiding caches, when as far as I know, all WGA members currently do use gc.com, and not other web listing services.

I think one of the strengths of gc.com is the rules that you list above, that other sites do not have. Personally, I do not want to find caches buried, next to railroad tracks, extremely close to another cache or in somebody's store trying to sell me something.

zuma

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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TyeDyeSkyGuy
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-03-18
Posts: 2231
Location: Kenosha, WI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

rogheff wrote:
As a cacher who plays on multiple geocaching websites, I'd like to make a suggestion about the WGA "Hiding a Cache" page.

The guidelines currently are written with sole regard to www.geocaching.com rules and regulations. Many of these rules and regulations simply don't apply to all geocaching activities in Wisconsin.

If a cacher wants to place a cache on the GC.com website, their rules are clearly posted. I don't feel it's necessary to repeat them without full disclosure of other options.

Some rules are common sense safety issues (such as the railroad track rule), but there may be a cache that is perfectly acceptable that would violate that particular regulation.

The specific lines on the "Hiding a Cache" guidelines to which I refer are:

For your safety and the safety of other geocachers, the WGA asks that all geocachers placing caches in Wisconsin abide by the following rules set forth by geocaching.com and by the various local, state, and national government bodies which govern public land in Wisconsin. These rules and regulations are subject to change so please check back for any updates prior to hiding your next cache.

I don't think the WGA should declare GC.com as the sole judge of how to place a cache.


Never bury a cache. A cache is considered buried if it must be dug up by hand or by tool. Placing rocks, bark, logs etc. over a cache is not considered burial, nor is placing a cache into a naturally occurring crevice or hole. If a shovel, trowel, or other pointy object is used to dig to hide or find a cache, it's not appropriate.

While GC.com does not approve buried caches, other websites may not have such restrictions. Perhaps a Buried Treasure cache would be an exciting adventure.

When placing a cache, be sure that it is at least 528 feet (0.10 miles) away from any surrounding caches. This includes all waypoints of surrounding multi or mystery caches.

This does not apply to any website other than GC.com.

If you place a cache or a stage of a multi-cache hunt within a commercial location, keep in mind the prohibitions against commercial caches. If a fee, purchase, or solicitation (monetary or otherwise) is required to gain access to the cache or waypoint, the cache is not allowed. Caches placed to promote commercial, political, religious, or other social agendas are also disallowed.

Commercial caches are approved on other websites.


Because I believe monopolies belong nowhere except in a communist society, I have to agree with most of your opinion here.

The only part I would have trouble with is your statement about commercial caches. I think there are enough commercials, political advertisements and religious door-knockers in our world already. Lets try our best to keep that out of geocaching.
 
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greyhounder
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-18
Posts: 3342
Location: Fort Atkinson, WI, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

Please know that I have no problems with any of the other GPS activities -- I think anything that gets you outside and active is a good thing.

But do remember that this is the Wisconsin GEOCACHING Association, not the Wisconsin GPS ACTIVITY Association. This website is devoted to those who use the gc.com guidelines at this time.

That's not to say that we couldn't ever expand our horizons into other GPS activities, we just wouldn't be the Wisconsin Geocaching Association anymore.

I really, really hope some of the other sites are not putting caches near railroad tracks. Not only is it a safety issue, it is also tresspassing.

Bec

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rogheff
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-11-05
Posts: 348
Location: N42* ish x W87* ish

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

greyhounder wrote:
Please know that I have no problems with any of the other GPS activities -- I think anything that gets you outside and active is a good thing.

But do remember that this is the Wisconsin GEOCACHING Association, not the Wisconsin GPS ACTIVITY Association. This website is devoted to those who use the gc.com guidelines at this time.

That's not to say that we couldn't ever expand our horizons into other GPS activities, we just wouldn't be the Wisconsin Geocaching Association anymore.

I really, really hope some of the other sites are not putting caches near railroad tracks. Not only is it a safety issue, it is also tresspassing.

Bec


Mad This is where I have a major, major problem! Show me where in the WGA bylaws it states that this website is devoted and anchored to GC.com! It isn't written anywhere! This is the Wisconsin Geocaching Association and not the Wisconsin Geocachingdotcom Association.

I'm not talking about geocaching-like activities, such as those shown on gpsgames.org I'm talking about other geocaching websites such as terracaching.com and navicache.com The only reason they're not called geocaching.com is because the website name was already taken. But the activity associated with these websites is geocaching.

Who says that all people who use the WGA site are strictly folks who play on GC.com? I'm proof that cachers play on more than one site. I am currently getting nearly as much traffic on my caches listed elsewhere as I do on my GC.com listed caches.

To clarify an earlier comment, when I referred to the railroad track issue, I realize that under the vast majority of cases, this isn't a good idea. But there can be exceptions and I'll give you one. At the Kenosha Metra Train station, there's a really neat tile mosaic on the wall of the pathway leading to the train boarding area (an area open to the public). This picture is under the tracks and couldn't possibly be mistaken for going up by the trains. What an interesting subject for a Virtual Cache.

Most of the GC.com regulations are perfectly good and I follow many of them when placing geocaches listed elsewhere. But...I don't feel it's the WGA's place to tell Wisconsin cachers that those are the ONLY rules that apply to geocaching in Wisconsin.

The prospect of commercial caching shouldn't be dismissed so quickly either. How many people attended that Informercial Event that Garmin hosted last month? If a gas station placed a commercial cache and offered you a $10 gas card to go find it, you wouldn't look?

I know that the vast majority of cachers play on one website. That's because that same vast majority don't know that other websites exist.

Everytime I bring up the subject of GC.com alternatives, I get similar responses to those listed in this thread. As much as some folks may not like it, new Virtual, Locationless, Temporary, Vacation, Traveling and Moving Geocaches exist - in Wisconsin. More are created every week.

_________________
[url]www.rogheffgeocaching.homestead.com[/url]Rogheff's geocaching website

[url]www.diamondwillow.homestead.com[/url] Rogheff's Hiking Stick website
 
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SammyClaws
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-04-27
Posts: 331
Location: Muskego

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

greyhounder wrote:
Please know that I have no problems with any of the other GPS activities -- I think anything that gets you outside and active is a good thing.

But do remember that this is the Wisconsin GEOCACHING Association, not the Wisconsin GPS ACTIVITY Association. This website is devoted to those who use the gc.com guidelines at this time.

That's not to say that we couldn't ever expand our horizons into other GPS activities, we just wouldn't be the Wisconsin Geocaching Association anymore.

I really, really hope some of the other sites are not putting caches near railroad tracks. Not only is it a safety issue, it is also tresspassing.

Bec



So does this mean that WGA is just an extention of Groudspeak?
 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

SammyClaws wrote:
greyhounder wrote:
Please know that I have no problems with any of the other GPS activities -- I think anything that gets you outside and active is a good thing.

But do remember that this is the Wisconsin GEOCACHING Association, not the Wisconsin GPS ACTIVITY Association. This website is devoted to those who use the gc.com guidelines at this time.

That's not to say that we couldn't ever expand our horizons into other GPS activities, we just wouldn't be the Wisconsin Geocaching Association anymore.

I really, really hope some of the other sites are not putting caches near railroad tracks. Not only is it a safety issue, it is also tresspassing.

Bec



So does this mean that WGA is just an extention of Groudspeak?

I would think no, it just means it's easiest to concentrate on the most recognized and used website's rules and resources.
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

SammyClaws wrote:
greyhounder wrote:
Please know that I have no problems with any of the other GPS activities -- I think anything that gets you outside and active is a good thing.

But do remember that this is the Wisconsin GEOCACHING Association, not the Wisconsin GPS ACTIVITY Association. This website is devoted to those who use the gc.com guidelines at this time.

That's not to say that we couldn't ever expand our horizons into other GPS activities, we just wouldn't be the Wisconsin Geocaching Association anymore.

I really, really hope some of the other sites are not putting caches near railroad tracks. Not only is it a safety issue, it is also tresspassing.

Bec




So does this mean that WGA is just an extention of Groudspeak?



No, I dont think that the WGA is just an extension of gc.com. However, at least for most of us the gc.com game is the game of choice, the game we enjoy playing, and the game that we are here to talk about.

I suppose that if at some point, if one of the competeting web listing service gained any traction and was being played by more than a handful of people, then we would enjoy discussing it here in the forums. As it is now, gc.com really has no viable and strong alternative. I do not believe in monopolies, either, but right now, judging by the boots on the ground chasing caches, gc.com appears to be the only game in town.

For example, I looked at Navicache today, prompted by this thread. Navicache has not changed since I first looked at it over 3 years ago. It still has crappy graphics, poor user interface, and broken links. Worse, nearly all of the caches listed on Navicache (at least in my area) have been archived for over a year, and I know from the owner that they are not there. (Note to BNB: The presidential series that you and Chiot archived last year is still listed on Navicache.)

I looked at some of the Rogheff caches, and I dont see a lot of activity there, though I admit I didnt look at them all. I did notice that Rogheff, the biggest proponent of Navicache here, has less than 20 Navicache finds, which I think says a bit about the strength of alternative sites other than gc.com.

zuma

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Until there are some major changes - and I mean MAJOR - I view geocaching and GC.com as the same thing.

Those other sites ............ not part of THE game.
 
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rogheff
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-11-05
Posts: 348
Location: N42* ish x W87* ish

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You can't go by the volume of caches that Rogheff has found. I've also only found 17 Groundspeak caches in the past 4 months. Embarassed

I'm not the only Wisconsin Cacher playing on the other websites though

From the WGA Homepage:

Welcome to the Wisconsin Geocaching Association Website

The Wisconsin Geocaching Association (WGA) is a group of geocachers dedicated to promoting and protecting geocaching within the state of Wisconsin. The WGA organizes geocaching events, works with land owners/managers on geocaching policies, educates the public at large about geocaching, and facilitates communication between WGA members.


I read the words on the welcome page and in the bylaws and see no such affiliation with Groundspeak. I see a welcome to all geocachers to come and discuss all things geocaching.

If I want a Groundspeak discussion regarding groundspeak's caches listed in Wisconsin, I can go to Groundspeak's Midwest forum.

I'm here because I want to talk about caching (in general) in Wisconsin.

Have I misunderstood the purpose of the WGA all these years?
If I were to archive all my Groundspeak caches and stop seeking caches on GC.com, am I no longer welcome here?

_________________
[url]www.rogheffgeocaching.homestead.com[/url]Rogheff's geocaching website

[url]www.diamondwillow.homestead.com[/url] Rogheff's Hiking Stick website
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

rogheff wrote:
You can't go by the volume of caches that Rogheff has found. I've also only found 17 Groundspeak caches in the past 4 months. Embarassed

I'm not the only Wisconsin Cacher playing on the other websites though

From the WGA Homepage:

Welcome to the Wisconsin Geocaching Association Website

The Wisconsin Geocaching Association (WGA) is a group of geocachers dedicated to promoting and protecting geocaching within the state of Wisconsin. The WGA organizes geocaching events, works with land owners/managers on geocaching policies, educates the public at large about geocaching, and facilitates communication between WGA members.


I read the words on the welcome page and in the bylaws and see no such affiliation with Groundspeak. I see a welcome to all geocachers to come and discuss all things geocaching.

If I want a Groundspeak discussion regarding groundspeak's caches listed in Wisconsin, I can go to Groundspeak's Midwest forum.

I'm here because I want to talk about caching (in general) in Wisconsin.

Have I misunderstood the purpose of the WGA all these years?
If I were to archive all my Groundspeak caches and stop seeking caches on GC.com, am I no longer welcome here?


Hey Rogheff,

All are welcome here, especially iconoclasts, so yeah keep bringing up other sites as much as you wish. I enjoy the conversation.

I am just pointing out that it raises questions when you have more posts extolling the virtues of Navicache than you have Navicache finds.

If the only virtue of Navicache is that it is a way to circumvent the reasonable rules of gc.com, then that raises even more questions.

zuma

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PCFrog
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-05-11
Posts: 728
Location: Sparta, WI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Rogheff and others,

You make a very good point and I do agree that the WGA should not be tired directly to GC.com. However I do agree that WGA needs to make a stance on the rules of placing a cache in Wisconsin. The main reason for this is for clarification to those who are not cachers in official or non official positions making rules and policies, which geocachers regardless of affiliation have to abide by.

Longer explanation
The WGA is a representative of geocachers in the state, this is regardless if those individual are members or not. Government officials or property owners alike will NOT know the difference between a person using GC.com to search for a cache or someone using hideandfindme.com. All they will care about is that ALL cachers follow the rules and policies they set forth. What you are proposing is a system that allows the rules to be bent or flat out broken.

DNR says “we” under the policy of GC.com and WGA cannot put caches in state natural areas. If you don’t like this then you simply hide the cache anyways and list the cache on an alternate site. In the end the DNR does not care about what site or the particular rules you were following of the site which host your post. They, the DNR, only care about the fact that a geocacher placed an unauthorized cache.

WGA can support other GPS activities and see nothing wrong with that as long as the other activities remain within the WGA rules.
 
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rogheff
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-11-05
Posts: 348
Location: N42* ish x W87* ish

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I've got to admit, that I'm getting a bit depressed here guys. You're really beating up on me Crying or Very sad Seriously, I do feel as though I may have misjudged this website. I had no idea that so many cachers feel so much differently than myself (so dead set against anything other than Groundspeak). I merely view other websites as additional opportunities - not necessarily as competing alternatives.

I like Navicache and I also like Terracaching (and I still like Groundspeak) but I like them all for different reasons. None of those reasons revolve around circumventing any Groundspeak rules (jeese, I don't think so anyway - perhaps a little introspection is needed here). I also honestly dislike each for different reasons.

Hey Zuma, if you really want some ammo on my find count, I only have 3 on Terracaching. Now if you fine folks would go hid some nearby, I'd have some more Laughing

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rogheff
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-11-05
Posts: 348
Location: N42* ish x W87* ish

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

PCFrog wrote:
Rogheff and others,

You make a very good point and I do agree that the WGA should not be tired directly to GC.com. However I do agree that WGA needs to make a stance on the rules of placing a cache in Wisconsin. The main reason for this is for clarification to those who are not cachers in official or non official positions making rules and policies, which geocachers regardless of affiliation have to abide by.

Longer explanation
The WGA is a representative of geocachers in the state, this is regardless if those individual are members or not. Government officials or property owners alike will NOT know the difference between a person using GC.com to search for a cache or someone using hideandfindme.com. All they will care about is that ALL cachers follow the rules and policies they set forth. What you are proposing is a system that allows the rules to be bent or flat out broken.

DNR says “we” under the policy of GC.com and WGA cannot put caches in state natural areas. If you don’t like this then you simply hide the cache anyways and list the cache on an alternate site. In the end the DNR does not care about what site or the particular rules you were following of the site which host your post. They, the DNR, only care about the fact that a geocacher placed an unauthorized cache.

WGA can support other GPS activities and see nothing wrong with that as long as the other activities remain within the WGA rules.


Interesting comment. I've had discussions recently with several state and local park authorities regarding the placement of new virtual, moving and locationless caches. These folks (the Wisconsin DNR, City of Kenosha, Milwaukee County and Winnebego Park District - yeah I know, that's Illinois) had no clue what I was talking about. They had no idea how a geocache could be anything besides a box permanently plopped upon their land.

Now I bring this up, because if the WGA represents me and others who play the game on websites other than groundspeak, then all the cache options would be represented in WGA discussions with these park entities.

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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Look at this from this point of view. No mater how you say it, The WGA is going to represent the "Majority". The majority being GC.com and Southwestern WI cuz that where the majority of the players are. Will the WGA Camp out ever be held in Patterson Park or Amnicon Falls Park or Copper Falls State Park? Very, very unlikely cuz the Majority of the people that play this game are down south. That will always be true.

Or Until a UWGA is formed.
 
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