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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:51 am Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
I place caches to be found. How they are found does not concern me.

If you really want each finder to solve your puzzles, then you need to add a requirement to the cache page that asks for a sworn, notarized statement that the logger did solve the puzzle. (Lots of sarcasm here. I will notarize anyone's statement ........!)

It really is All About the Numbers man! I want to clear them off my radar screen.


There is a fundamental difference between the way you, and others in the numbers camp, view the sport and the way I, and others in the solve it camp, that will always be at odds with each other.

You and I are probably at the far ends of the spectrum on this issue and I'd venture to guess most others fall somewhere in between.

On my end of the spectrum, we are not concerned about getting ALL the caches in our neighborhood, are not concerned about our rankings and stats, and are content to leave puzzles that we find difficult to solve, remain unsolved and un-found because we feel we are cheating the puzzle creators if we short-cut the process to get there. You'll notice that those who've come to my defense are avid puzzle creators and share many of the feelings I have about puzzle tours.

On your end of the spectrum are cachers that ARE concerned about the numbers and about stats and do want to clear your screen of those pesky ?'s. You view them as an annoyance rather than a challenge. Of course, you yourself, are a bit of an anomaly since you are also a puzzle creator and do create puzzles that you want others to gain insight and experience from. Your cemetery monument series is a great example. Would you not feel inclined to delete a log if you found out that a cacher logged a bunch of your "post a picture of this type of monument" by culling pics from the internet? Apparently not.

I suspect that cachers on your end of the spectrum have been around a long time, long before puzzles became so prolific, long before players like me and -cheeto- and gotta run got into it, and are just used to playing the game a certain way. I suspect as well that many of us in the puzzle creation category have not been around for that long, and have an entirely different appreciation of how to play the game. We do not have really high numbers, we are not watching the High Pobah stats or checking or find per day ratios.

I can't expect you to play the game differently, and certainly if you spend time on one of my frustrating puzzles and aren't getting anywhere, I would expect you to ask for help, either from me (which you often do) or from someone else, just as I expect many others to do.

My point of contention is not with the way that you, specifically you, get your number or find your caches. While I think you are cheating yourself at times, I can't fault you for playing the way you want to play - to each their own. What I do have a problem with is the "common knowledge" that "Marc shares puzzle solves, (though rarely your own) and moreover the common knowledge that you can go with Marc on a tour and clear out some puzzles without having solved them, OR EVEN ATTEMPTED to solve them, and it's no skin off anyone's nose.

Why? Not just because I feel a little cheated, which I do because I invest a great deal of time into them so cachers get something out of them, but more importantly because those of us who have invested a lot of time to solve puzzles on our own merit, feel cheated when someone else posts a copy/paste log on a puzzle we have 20+ hours into trying to solve, and they get it without even looking at the cache listing.

I can't change the way people play, but thankfully I think that 99% of the players out there DO want to have solved puzzles before finding them, or at least have made significant progress or know how to solve them, before logging a find. Nor can I fault anyone for wanting to go on a tour as there is an element of excitement and fun in caching in a group, probably the reason you like to do it so much.

All I can do is ask you, and those in your camp, to ignore my puzzles if you do not intend to solve them. As has been said, there's plenty more out there to find. That way you will not be enticing others to log finds on puzzles they haven't solved.

I won't get into the differences between solving some of your "read-my-mind" cryptic puzzles and my "follow the logic" puzzles, as that was covered and I do think there is one, suffice it to say that I think you look at puzzles differently than I do as well.

I put them out for many reasons, to entertain, to educate, to reflect and to experience. I DO NOT PUT THEM OUT just to be found.
 
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TyeDyeSkyGuy
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-03-18
Posts: 2231
Location: Kenosha, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:
marc_54140 wrote:

Ultimately, each cacher has to decide for him or herself if finding the cache or solving the puzzle, or both, is what he or she feels is necessary when logging a find. For me, a find is a find. And that is, after all, the standard definition of finding a cache - find the container.


Quote:
Wow. So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter to you what the puzzle is or what the intent of the puzzle creator is, it doesn't really matter as long as you can log the final and get it off your nearest to home list. Way to show your true colors.




I have to agree with Marc. In fact, one of the best finds on what I would consider to be one of my hardest puzzles (Signs) was a find by a real good geo-buddy who had not solved the puzzle. Oh he tried and tried but couldn't come up with it. So, he set out to the area where he thought it might be and walked around for hours in the woods until he stumbled upon it. In my book, definitly a worthy find, and one he earned. He obviously put in as much time as anyone who has solved the puzzle.
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 5993
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:27 am Reply with quote Back to top

I've watched this thread with obvious interest, as I think it's clear I was the instigator for the recent "Carol" tour. I don't want to debate the merits of solve versus find, as I think folks have done an excellent job in that regard already, and acknowledge that everyone has different reasons for playing.

I do want to thank Michael and Alex for pointing out their perspective as solvers of these hard puzzles. I was remiss in not even considering that aspect of sharing a solve. I bow to the first solvers of "Carol" and "Sinister," as they had no clues to guide them. That said, I spent plenty of time on both, seeking a nudge at times on both, but ultimately enjoying the slap on the head accompanied by "why didn't I see that before" response. That's why I do these things; I enjoy that aha moment, and sure wish it were forthcoming on the "Puzzling" one also found that day. Ack! To those who feel cheated because a number of the people in the group didn't spend the time solving it, I apologize for facilitating that. In the end, we each get what we want from playing this game, and I think it would help all of us to consider that in the end. Know that if a group has gone out to get something, chances are at least one person in that group enjoyed that response you intended. Others enjoyed the scenery, the hide or the camaraderie.

Knowing Alex's feelings on this topic, I haven't facilitated such finds for others on his, but I also know others may play the game their own way. In fact, this *may* be the only time I've instigated anything of this sort. I am willing to be corrected if it's not.

I do wish to state here that for the record, I enjoy puzzling over these things. I may ask for help or a nudge, but I don't want an outright solution, or even a really direct hint. I want to ask for guidance along the lines of "here's what I've done, am I on the right track?" There are a couple times when we've been led right to a puzzle solve, but I think it's only a couple and it wasn't solicited. Neither of those were anyone from the Fox Valley, and they happened as part of event caching in a big group.
It happens. I've seen others get by with shortcutting some we took the time to do "the right way" and honestly, it's just a chuckle. I have so many other causes that deserve my moral outrage, and whether someone cheats a cache isn't one of them. That said, I respect the wishes of various folks who've made clear their feelings about this practice and appreciate that they felt compelled to point out how the actions of some of us can leave others feeling "stung." Other than our couple unsolicited finds, if we log a puzzle find.....we worked the puzzle.

_________________
Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:09 am Reply with quote Back to top

There are no rules in caching that defines how and when puzzles caches are found. There are no rights, no wrongs. Therefore, no one is in the right, no one is in the wrong.

Itís all a difference of interpretation. Everyone gets to choose how they go about it all. No one has to apologize for what they do!
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
There are no rules in caching that defines how and when puzzles caches are found. There are no rights, no wrongs. Therefore, no one is in the right, no one is in the wrong.

Itís all a difference of interpretation. Everyone gets to choose how they go about it all. No one has to apologize for what they do!


Agreed. Jumping over a fence to quickly get to a cache that would otherwise require a 1/4 mile walk is still certainly an adventure and not what the owner intended.

Doing a search and destroy on a 6-part multi that took 20 plus hours to create and anther 10 hours and 4 trips to place and then logging the find without doing any of the stages is still a find after all.

I'm not expecting any apologies, in fact I just gave you one for coming to the wrong conclusion on your recent find of one of mine.

I'm not asking you for an apology or to play the game any differently than you do.

I AM asking you not to promote cache tours on my puzzles caches where the practice of logging puzzles without solving them is promoted. If someone asks you for help, fine, give them a nudge. That's different that saying "hey, I know where the final is on the 10-stage multi if you want to log it". You can do what you want, I'm just making it clear that this owner/creator would LIKE you to solve his puzzles before you log them - pretty sure everyone gets that now. AND make it clear that I don't want my puzzles found by every cacher in the valley because they are out there, but found by those who appreciate what I put into them. I don't care if some of mine are only found by one or two players a year. If you find my puzzles pesky nuisances, just put them on your ignore list and forget about them.

I can't change the way anybody plays the game, nor can I fault anyone for playing the way they do. I can ask for a little consideration, however, for the intent of the puzzle and the creator. I know that I am not alone in this regard.

You are right, there are no rights and wrongs, just owner expectations that the effort they put into creating caches is awarded to those who make the find the way the owner intended. In the end everyone lives with their finds and the knowledge of how they got them. We're all going to be let down on occasion, no matter what kind of caches we place. I know, it happens to me all the time.

Now, to start surfing for some cemetery pictures...
 
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GetMeOutdoors
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-12-27
Posts: 344
Location: Wausau

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
You are right, there are no rights and wrongs, just owner expectations


That's exactly what I was thinking, Alex... In the vast spectrum of ways to play the game, anyone seeking to keep the integrity of the game (beyond the "rules") must take into consideration the intent /spirit of the owner when the cache was designed. In my ignorance and zeal I have violated this principle in the past I'm sure but as I grow more aware of the sport and meet so many new cachers who are willing to share their philosophies, I find myself considering these points and finding a place and practice where I can play nice, know the limits, know the freedoms, and essentially not tick anyone off wink I'm still working on that. Embarassed
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I posted a note to s|s's afformentioned cache in response to his afformentioned apology. Originally I wasn't going to post it here but that was before reading the new posts on this thread (man it's busy in here..)

So here is my note. I still agree with it even after reading the newer posts on right vs wrong, rules, expectations, and all that.

As I state below this is a commentary based on how the puzzles caches are played in the Fox Valley and may not necessarily equate to a general rule for all areas of the state. It's a commentary about Marc teaching Fox Valley area cachers (and some who travel from further) that are either new to the game or new to puzzles about "his" way, meanwhile those folks don't read these fourms nor hear from cache owners like s|s that want them to appreciate, learn, explore while doing their caches (puzzle and all) rather than increase their find count by one more.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what would help is to stop expressing the opinion that sharing puzzle solves is universally accepted. The "any way you get it" attitude about solving a puzzle is not universally accepted by all cache owners in the Fox Valley. Nor is caching tours finding puzzles caches.

I didn't attend any of the recent puzzle events (for no other reason than I am just busy) but I've been to one before and that is really the message that was said then and I don't expect it's changed much based on marc's responses on the forums.

Perhaps at a minimum we should stop sharing this mentality and stop literally "teaching" it to newer cachers. It's your (marc's and maybe other's) opinion but it certainly doesn't have to be the opinion of all new cachers that come along and discover puzzles. If they come to this conclusion on there own that's one thing. However, if they hear from a bunch of other area cachers (and puzzle cache owners in this particular case) that it's "okay" to get the solve any way possible including getting the actual coords from someone else then I beleive you are hurting the future of the "game" as it is played in our area. To a new cacher, the game is played based on learning from others. That's how everyone learns a new hobby.

I would post this opinion on the forums but I really think this is local commentary and not really necessary to say elsewhere.

Let's move on now...
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:15 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
have to agree with Marc. In fact, one of the best finds on what I would consider to be one of my hardest puzzles (Signs) was a find by a real good geo-buddy who had not solved the puzzle. Oh he tried and tried but couldn't come up with it. So, he set out to the area where he thought it might be and walked around for hours in the woods until he stumbled upon it. In my book, definitly a worthy find, and one he earned. He obviously put in as much time as anyone who has solved the puzzle.


And yet you actually ALSO agree with s|s here. You state that your buddy worked on the puzzle first correct? It sounds like he put a lot of effort into making the solve first. You are the cache owner here so, did he experience what you wanted him to? Did you want him to learn anything? Did he? Do you admire his stick-to-itness for continuing to try to solve it?

I think your story does not necessarily indicate that you are on either side of this particular fence. You may agree with marc but it sounds like in this example given, it actually satisifies what s|s is trying to convey to everyone in this thread. Your geobuddy worked hard on the puzzle and then came up with another way to make the find. Not to put words in Alex's mouth here but that's not what he is talking about here. Quite the contrary actually. Let me equate your story to one of his caches and see how it sounds....

My geobuddy goes and works really hard on solving Artisans of Appleton | Just for the Brunn of It (formerly known as Art History 101 for those in the area) an s|s puzzle cache. He sees some great local art. Goes on the internet and reads a bunch of online art history information and tries to pinpoint "who's who" but just can't line them all up right (this is very close to what happened with me as I know nothing about art). Finally, he "goes on a hunch" and searches where he thinks it is based on past logs and proximity rules (one of marc's many techniques that I do agree with based on the circumstances...) and your geobuddy lucks out and makes the find.

Sounds to me like your geobuddy experienced what s|s intended and he definitely did not short change himself. Perhaps he enjoyed learning about art history. Perhaps he enjoyed viewing some great local sculptures on display in someone's front and back yards.

Okay, now let's say it's a different geobuddy. He's in town for the week and visiting with someone else. He has a bunch of caches to find and so does who he is staying with. They go out and find them all and one of them is the final for this same art history cache. They never saw the art. They never went online and learned anything. Yeah they don't know what they missed but I do and I feel sorry for them.

As I say in my previous post, let's just not encourage folks to get a home run when sometimes 2nd and 3rd base are much more fun. (very bad analogy here... cuz I'm not really talkin baseball if you catch my drift..)

-cheeto-
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, and if "art's not your thing" and you don't ever want to learn anything more on the subject than you already know you can always skip the Artisans of Appleton cache. This I can come up with a better analogy for. It's like someone who reads a lot and has certain favorite kinds of books. That person is unlikely to walk into a book store and purchase a type of book they don't enjoy reading.

There is nothing that says you should find every cache around your house nor any time limits on how long it might take to do so.

People who love to go to movies usually don't watch every movie that comes out in the theatres.

I have several caches close to home remaining that I am sure to enjoy. Life is to short not to continue learning as I go. I for one am very glad I grew up in the Appleton area and discovered geocaching.

-cheeto-
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

" Hey batter batter......SWING!.........Juuuuust a bit outside." wink
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19229
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:52 am Reply with quote Back to top

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for his lifetime." (or something like that).

Sometimes people are so hungry they need fish (but if they eat too many they may get sick). Some people can go fishing a long time and never catch anything (but they they may get discouraged and stop fishing).

I say, "Let's go fishing and see what we get. If nothing bites, we can try another spot. If we get hungry, we'll call for a pizza."
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:21 am Reply with quote Back to top

A bad day of fishing is always better than a good day at work.
 
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Sparse Grey Hackle
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-05-15
Posts: 462
Location: The Sovereign State of Winneconne

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Everyone should believe in something and I believe Iíll go fishing.
But seriously...........hey

W.W.J.L.S.?
(What Would John Lennon Say?)

KARMA

Please, think of your geo-karma.
Deleting logs and all this is such bad negative karma.
(or internet censorship?)

Letís put the f-u-n back into geocaching.

Don't just grab your football and go home with it.

Is this cabin fever in January?

Grab those snowshoes and hit the geo-trail.

Just take a deep breath..........everybody remember this suppose to be a game. Because......

Instant karmas gonna get you
Gonna look you right in the face
Better get yourself together darlin
Join the human race
How in the world you gonna see
Laughin at fools like me
Who in the hell dyou think you are
A super star
Well, right you are

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun

Instant Karma, John Lennon

_________________
So many caches....so little time.
__________________________
Try to hide them as good as if not better than how you found them.
__________________________
If you aint touching something, then you aint looking. 
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nohandsgps
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 251
Location: Menomonee Falls

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I had my first FTF this morn... Yeah for me. Wow was that an exciting feeling. I was so excited I stopped to tell the cop what I was doing. He was approaching the area as I was running jumpin' up and down leaving the scene. I thought I would prevent a situation by turning around and letting him know I wasn't crazy. (sorry didn't mean to steal the thread... carry on)
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Like a bad burritto, this feeling too shall pass.
 
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