The Wisconsin Geocaching Association

  Login or Register

Website Navigation

62.png Home
15.png WGA Store

49.png Information Center
26.png WGA Newsletters
24.png Reviewer's Words
53.png Presentation Resources
39.png Geocaching Files
27.png Bookmarks
56.png Location Rules and Regs
49.png BOD Info Center

17.png Forums
16.png New Posts
20.png Unanswered Posts

calendar_day.png Upcoming Events
mapicon.png Map
29.png Calendar
11.png Submit Event

mapicon.png WGA State Park CachesNew content !

shield_star.png Cache of the Month
mapicon.png Past Winners Map

LonelyCache.png Lonely Cache Game
mapicon.png Current Map
26.png Scoreboard
11.png Submit Report

rescueiconsm.png Cache Rescue
11.png Submit a Mission

icon_community.gif Members
27.png Your Account
47.png Private Messages
contact_blue.png WGA Member Map
Geocaching_LIVE_poweredby_16.png GC.COM Authorization

icon_members.gif News
tree-T.gif Topics
tree-T.gif Archives
tree-L.gif Submit News

image_cultured.png Photo Gallery
tree-T.gif Updates
tree-L.gif Popular

shield.png Fun Stuff
28.png Recent Logs
TB.gif Picnic to Picnic TB Race Standings
TB.gif WGA Hauler

49.png Board of Directors
 
Contact Us

 
Facebook

Wisconsin Geocaching Association

 
Follow Us

Twitter Button

 
Subscribe to Newsletter

Subscribe to our mailing list

* indicates required
 
Geocaching.com Search
View Search Syntax
 
COTM
Winner -
March 2014 Northern Zone:
Apostle Islands-Mawikwe Sea Caves

Winner -
March 2014 Northeast Zone:
Moscow, We Have A Problem

Winner -
March 2014 West Central Zone:
World Wide Quarters

Winner -
March 2014 South Central Zone:
WSQ Dunn

Winner -
March 2014 Southeast Zone:
Risen King

Winner -
March 2014 Series of the Month:
Woodpecker Series of Johnson Creek


More Info >>>

 
 
Wisconsin Geocaching Association: Forums
 

 

View next topic
View previous topic
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 5746
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We're wanting to "give back" to the caching community by placing our own 5/5. We have a location in mind. I want to do something creative with the puzzle, probably in the form of a story line, imagine that. Rolling Eyes

I'm struggling with how to make it hard enough to be a true 5 difficulty. If some of you with more experience in that kind of thing would either share your thought processes in setting these up, or want to pm me, it would be greatly appreciated. The only other puzzle I've created is painfully simple, at least if you had the right class in high school to recognize it for what it is.

_________________
Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
View user's profile Send private message
marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A Carol for PaperDolls.
 
View user's profile Send private message
gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3293

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:53 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Hi T&B;

The difficult part about creating an enjoyable difficult puzzle is giving people a sense as they go along that they are on the "right track." In other words, cypher-type 5/5 can be just maddening, because you don't know if you're even on the right track until you find the key, at which point it all falls into place.

More difficult to create, but more enjoyable to solve, is a puzzle that lets solvers know that incrementally they are on the right track. And for that, a story would work perfectly and is a great idea. I came across a cache a while back that was pretty much a novel, and I'll try to find it.

Anyway, another component of a D5 puzzle is one that requires 'special knowledge.' This is the basis of the rating behind our D5 music puzzles, as was suggested by the reviewer.

Therefore, could you take your ability in story telling, and somehow marry it to your "special knowledge" in birding? Some sort of treking and birding "adventure" that would involve identifcation of species...including pictures...that sort of thing.

Turn it into a nifty PDF "ebook" type thing, and you'd really have something.

Maybe???
 
View user's profile Send private message
Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 5746
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, that was kind of the sort of thing I had in mind.....solve that mystery and get to the first waypoint, after which point the coords would be easy. The terrain part is the easy thing here.

If you come across the one you found, I'd love to take a look. I don't want to copy cat the things others have done, but I don't want to put it out only to be hard. I know exactly what you mean about the bit where having a sense you might be on the right track is key. I've solved enough hard ones to know how that feels!

I actually have enjoyed the aspect of discernment many involve....what is really needed here? I always make things way harder than they really are before the light bulb finally goes on. Most of the time, once that happens, they are 2-3 difficulty at most. It's just getting through to that stage that makes them a 5, in my experience.

_________________
Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
View user's profile Send private message
Team Deejay
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-10-02
Posts: 2373
Location: Rochester, WI, US

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:47 am Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think spending a lot of time on a "desk puzzle", regardless of difficulty, makes a geocache good or bad. There is a certain pride in being able to solve a difficult challenge, but really, I believe that this game should be about spending time outdoors with your family and friends, not spending time by yourself working a sudoku or executing internet searches. That said, some of my favorite "desk puzzle" caches were Cheeering Viper, in the Brookfield area and Lateral Thinking, in the Milwaukee area. Both of these took you through a progression of steps for solving the puzzle, and added quite bit of variety in the solving process. I also greatly appreciate caches where one needs to combine deskwork with multiple trips to the field to gather necessary information. Those really get you involved in the "storyline" of the cache, which is necessary to make the experience memorable. Let's face it. No one will remember working a crossword a year from now. They will remember a cache which engages those finding it.
 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Decrepit
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-09-19
Posts: 473

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:16 am Reply with quote Back to top

Ooohh! Lateral thinking was good! I still haven't gone out and made the find, but I loved the puzzles.

Desk type puzzles are great for those of us who are currently sidelined as well. Keep 'em coming! Very Happy

_________________
Support hedgehog rescue. Help out our quilly kids. 
View user's profile Send private message
seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:48 am Reply with quote Back to top

Team Deejay wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think spending a lot of time on a "desk puzzle", regardless of difficulty, makes a geocache good or bad. There is a certain pride in being able to solve a difficult challenge, but really, I believe that this game should be about spending time outdoors with your family and friends, not spending time by yourself working a sudoku or executing internet searches. That said, some of my favorite "desk puzzle" caches were Cheeering Viper, in the Brookfield area and Lateral Thinking, in the Milwaukee area. Both of these took you through a progression of steps for solving the puzzle, and added quite bit of variety in the solving process. I also greatly appreciate caches where one needs to combine deskwork with multiple trips to the field to gather necessary information. Those really get you involved in the "storyline" of the cache, which is necessary to make the experience memorable. Let's face it. No one will remember working a crossword a year from now. They will remember a cache which engages those finding it.


I agree wholeheartedly! Now I know that people who come to town on a long-distance run can and do get frustrated with puzzles that require filed and desk time, occasionally multiple rounds of each. At the same time, there are so many caches in any one area now that one simply has to accept that you might not be able to log every cache in every town you visit. This is one of the hardest realizations for many long-distance number-grabbing cachers to fathom, though most eventually do.

I also know that many traveling caches who revisit this area after finding a good puzzle or two, can't wait to come back to try some more because the reward of finding them is just that much more enjoyable and memorable.

That, for me, is my ultimate goal. To make memorable caches. I want people to be able to say, of any of my caches, "Hey, do you remember seldom's such-and-such cache" and the response to be "Oh, cripes, DO I REMEMBER that one", nine times out of ten. If they remember my caches a year from now, It's that much more likely they will come bouncing back for more...

Now, I have a couple 5/5's and they both earn that rating as anyone who's completed them can attest to. But, I also have an aversion to "read-my-mind" puzzles that are layered with so many herrings that you just find yourself wasting tons of time better spent in the woods with family than sitting at a desk all night trying to decypher someone's twisted logic. I try to make sure there is a path to solving but difficulty is always in the eye of the beholder. Take FIN is for Finish, z.b., with the italic clues laced in the description which spells out the equation to get the solve, I would have thought it would be easier than it turned out to be and I hate knowing that some just can't make the leap even after staring at it for hours. That's the point where you need to pick up the phone and call me or shoot me a PM.
 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:00 am Reply with quote Back to top

I still say variety is the spice of life.

Keep all kinds of caches coming....
 
View user's profile Send private message
gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3293

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:24 am Reply with quote Back to top

It seems with your interest in "birding," that a field component would be a natural part of making this a challenging puzzle.
 
View user's profile Send private message
Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 5746
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:46 am Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
still say variety is the spice of life.


We've got one of those coming shortly, too. Twisted Evil

I personally don't expect to always get these tough ones first trip through. We went to Wausau last weekend hoping to do the new series there, and blew one of the caches in the 6 pack. So, another trip. Same thing happened when we did Gauntlet over in Faribault.

However.....I do know there are those who want to be able to make a single sweep, but I'm guessing the folks who'll go after a 5/5 will not necessarily be the same people. Thanks for the input; we'll probably put the actual caches out soon, work on the puzzle and hopefully be able to publish it later, once I have something that works.

_________________
Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
View user's profile Send private message
Miata
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-20
Posts: 860
Location: Neenah, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I am having trouble with the concept of spending 3 hours on a pair of puzzles only to have them be very unrealistically hard to find. I will reserve further judgment until I have found said containers. Confused

_________________
\"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Miata wrote:
I am having trouble with the concept of spending 3 hours on a pair of puzzles only to have them be very unrealistically hard to find. I will reserve further judgment until I have found said containers. Confused


Ditto!

My belief is that the puzzle is the Difficulty part of the cache. Finding the container should not be difficult, UNLESS the cache page also addresses that specifically!
 
View user's profile Send private message
gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3293

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
My belief is that the puzzle is the Difficulty part of the cache. Finding the container should not be difficult, UNLESS the cache page also addresses that specifically!


Oh man, did you serve that up just for me? How nice of you Twisted Evil

So, just to pose a hypothetical here. What if I want to place a bison tube, hidden in dense foliage, on an island, with coordinates that put you in the middle of the water so you have to scour a large radius without knowing if you're in the right spot or not. Would you consider that "not difficult?"

Ace....
 
View user's profile Send private message
marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It's a 5/5.
 
View user's profile Send private message
gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3293

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
My belief is that the puzzle is the Difficulty part of the cache.
 
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:       
Post new topic   Reply to topic

View next topic
View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001-2008 phpBB Group
:: Theme & Graphics by Daz :: Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com ::
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
 
Forums ©
 
Legal Notice | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Parental Consent Form | contact | Comments ]

All content © 2013 Wisconsin Geocaching Association, except comments and forum entries which are property of their posters.

The Groundspeak Geocaching Logo is a registered trademark of Groundspeak, Inc. Used with permission.
 


Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of the WGA Terms of Use


Distributed by Raven PHP Scripts
New code written and maintained by the RavenNuke™ TEAM


(Original PHP-Nuke Code Copyright © 2004 by Francisco Burzi)
Page Generation: 0.31 Seconds

:: fisubice phpbb2 style by Daz :: PHP-Nuke theme by www.nukemods.com ::
:: fisubice Theme Recoded To 100% W3C CSS & HTML 4.01 Transitional & XHTML 1.0 Transitional Compliance by RavenNuke™ TEAM ::

:: W3C CSS Compliance Validation :: W3C HTML 4.01 Transitional Compliance Validation :: W3C XHTML 1.0 Transitional Compliance Validation ::