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Poll
What is your opinion of logging a "found it" on a cache where the logger has not solved the puzzle?
This is ok.
37%
 37%  [ 27 ]
This is not ok.
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Other answer not listed.
33%
 33%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 72


Author Message
marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:48 am Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting, reading the GC blurb about what a puzzle cache is, and how the cache description must lead to coordinates.

Hmmm. Does not say you need to have the coordinates to find the cache though.

Actually, I have found a dozen or more caches where the coordinates were not part of the puzzle solution. Seldom | Seen has some of these (Head Case, I'd Walk a Mile, etc) and so do Jimandlinda (go to the placque, read some numbers, go that direction....) and a few others around the state.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:

Actually, I have found a dozen or more caches where the coordinates were not part of the puzzle solution. Seldom | Seen has some of these (Head Case, I'd Walk a Mile, etc) and so do Jimandlinda (go to the placque, read some numbers, go that direction....) and a few others around the state.


That is a good point to bring up. However, the S|S caches you mention do not really fit the template because coordinates can be derived from the information that is on the cache page, or at least that's how we solved them. I know you prefer the wander-around method wink .

Obviously, field solve puzzles, whether it's using field info to obtain coordinates, or going to a set of starting coordinates to obtain directions, both involve the GPSr as an "integral part of the hunt."

And, I would equate taking someone to the final location of a field-solve to handing them coordiantes to a desk solve. For instance, our "WSQ A-Maze-ing," there is no puzzle to solve for coordinates, it is just directions. But you could easily take the Puzzle Tour Bus to where the cache is rather than go through all the trouble of walking around, as long as one person on the bus knows where it is.

So, different details, same result, in my view.
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:43 am Reply with quote Back to top

You only have to include the use of a GPS to find the cache. There is no rule that says the puzzle has to result in coordinates. Put 2 and 2 together and you get some of the creativity out there that marc is hinting at.

OR

there are alternative solves, one that ends in coordinates, and another that might not. Just because you solved a puzzle a certain way does not mean that the creator did not build it to have multiple solutions. Interesting thing to ponder.

Nowadays all caches must incorporate the use of a GPS, but I don't think the earlier puzzle caches all necessarily followed this rule. I can site a better example than marc did but I don't want to post spoilers.

For what it's worth both examples marc posts actually require a GPS to find the cache. They are also puzzles. If I tell someone the technique of solving the puzzle, it's still the same thing as handing someone coordinates regardless of what information you gain from solving the puzzle!

Did I confuse anyone? That's why they are called puzzles wink
 
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JimandLinda
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Joined: 2008-08-14
Posts: 5380
Location: Rosendale WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:04 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting fence sitting in the poll results! Not surprising...

The blue question mark isn't only for puzzles. It is also for Mystery caches, as well as being a "catch-all" category, as defined in the Terms for Geocaching. That's a pretty broad definition!

Like Marc noted, a few of our caches are offset hides, which you could probably find by NOT going to the posted GZ. But if it's a blizzard, or raining cats and dogs, or your in it for the numbers, or you simply want to make something up as to why you didn't "solve" the cache, I guess that's OK. You may have missed something unique, but that's the finders loss, not the hiders.
If a hider wants you to spend hours on the internet, googling phrases, instead of getting some fresh air, so what? There are alot of blue (?) in Appleton that I haven't looked at. (I mention those because I see them on my "Closest to Home Unfound Caches" list all the time!)
I look at every newest in Wisconsin cache, just to see what peeks my curiousity. Seldom/Seen's newest Wind Farm cache hit very close to home, so I was extremely interested in the information and geography of the area.
If a puzzle is interesting, I'll do the work. If it doesn't interest me, there are plenty more that are out there, and I'm sure, more on the way!

Bottomline- If a CO wants to control how others FIND their cache, it might be time for a new hobby!
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:34 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sandlanders wrote:
OK. Back to the Puzzle Tour wars...


Definitely. More on that later.

sandlanders wrote:
BakRdz, I would like to suggest to you and to others to rethink Marc's 900 cemetery series. This was originally set up to get people to actually see the unique headstones that are highlighted for each cache.


I appreciate the suggestion, but am interested in why you would like BakRdz and others to rethink the ALR(Additional Logging Requirement) request. I donít think that part of your message was clear. You say that the series was set up to get people to see each unique headstone. I havenít spoke to Marc on this subject, but based on some of the 900 series caches Iíve read, Marc was trying ďto heighten your awareness of the many aspects of public expression found in cemeteries.Ē And the ALR turned each cache into a challenge cache and stated ďthis activity in intended to enhance your experience.Ē So my thought process is that Marc wants to get us a cemetery and appreciate the things around us. Donít just plow into the cemetery and find the cache. Look whatís around you and think. Look at the headstones and see the varieties that are out there. Why are they that way. By adding the ALR, Marc had you captured and forced you to look to get the smiley. That is all fine and good with me. I like challenges.

I can visit Marcís caches and look around, taking mental notes of the headstones around me before, during and after I hunt the cache. I can also do this without the ALR. I start to look at the things around me, and lets say I notice a pair of TWIN headstones, am I a better person or have I gained value because I kept looking and found a pair that are 3 feet tall? Without contacting Marc directly, how are any of us to know the real intent of Marc putting out these caches? Maybe if I saw Marc at an event and told him some of the various headstones I saw, he might smile and say, ďYou donít see many of those, do ya?Ē He might be satisfied and happy his cache made an impact.

But the ALR is gone. You can debate whether or not that was the right decision. Maybe the ALRs were getting abused and the very nature of this activity, finding a stash based on coordinates, was not the focus. GC.com made the rule for their website and all COís had the option to archive or modify their caches. Most chose to modify from a requirement to a request. Even though itís a request, do some owners feel differently about how cachers choose to log? Do some still think in the back of their mind that itís still a requirement and if someone doesnít satisfy it, they are a no good, number seeking, TFTC, C&P cacher?

So now that the ALR is gone, I feel that everyone should be able to make their own decision on what to do with it. In no way, shape or form do I feel anyone should have some obligation to the CO or any other cacher that came before them and found the cache with the mandatory ALR. If someone thinks they are better cacher because theyíve satisfied an ALR on a cache page than someone that has not, it says more about that person than the other not logging one. Iíd form my own impression of that type of person, but either way, I think both have a right to play the way that makes them happy.

And Iím glad you agree.
sandlanders wrote:
But play like you want without destroying the integrity of the game. If the smiley is what you're going for, that's what will make you happy. If it's conquering a physical challenge, that's what will make you happy. If it's the solve on a tricky puzzle, that's what will make you happy. Geocaching is what makes us all happy.


When I read BakRdzís post, I thought he/she(sorry?) was pretty clear

BakRdz wrote:
For puzzles, there has to be something special about it FOR ME to spend the headscratching time on it.


Even though the above sentence is about puzzles, the ďFOR MEĒ, jumped out.

BakRdz wrote:
I DO like spending the time looking around at the other headstones often (which I think is the intent), but I don't have the patience to collect and post photos just to log the find. That is a part of the experience that doesn't interest me. Does that make it wrong?


I read this as BakRdz is enjoying cemetery hides and appreciates more than the hide itself. He also has no interest in an experience that brings him no value. He then poses a question, which no one has answered. My answer is an empathic NO.
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

CodeJunkie wrote:
Quote:
Chastising someone for asking help from a fellow cacher without conferring with the owner?

I think this comes from a comment I made and may have been partly misinterpreted?


CJ - I admit that our conversation was part of, but certainly not the only thing that shaped my opinion. Iím not about to name names, but if they want to open up and put their 2 cents in, all the better. Iíve chatted at many events, emailed many geocachers, watched the forums and read tons of logs. I was NOT singling you out. This is about more than one cacher or one owner.

CodeJunkie wrote:
I was a newbie cacher working on a S|S cache and being ignorant I asked the prior finder for help (it made sense to me because they touched it last).


Exactly my point. Who says you were ignorant? That may be your opinion as well as some others, but I think itís a completely acceptable thing to do without disrespecting the CO.

CodeJunkie wrote:
I got a rather terse (or similar) email


Why does it have to come to this? Especially for someone new. You may have a strong backbone and be able to take some criticism, but not everyone would take that the same way. I think some would leave or play the game differently with no respect to the CO at all.

CodeJunkie wrote:
I'm a better cacher because of it.


I seriously hope you meant better informed. As far as I know there are no classes of cachers, although a lot of people like to categorize others and this is ultimately what a lot of disagreements are about. You have a good relationship with many COís and thatís a great thing. Thatís what I think most people would want. I know I do.

CodeJunkie wrote:
I'm a believer in following the intent (whether it's truly a requirement anymore or not).


Thatís great thatís how you want to do this series and that it gives you satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment. But do you feel others must follow the intent? And if not, are you a better, or are they a less worthy, cacher than yourself? If your answer is no to both questions, then we agree.

CodeJunkie wrote:
there are some great puzzles out there and I encourage everyone to try a few. You'll be amazed at what you learn and how much fun they can be. Believe it or not, they do actually want you to find their caches.
I publicly thank seldom|seen, marc_54140, -cheeto-, gotta run, sagasu, cheesehead and all the other great puzzle creators out there


I agree completely. Did you see me sneak cheeseball in there? Smile
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

A lot of interesting logs below and a lot of no solves on the puzzle portion. I wouldn't delete a single log. I think they all deserve a smiley. Very Happy

2/17/10 GrannyStinkyPants (2143 finds)
That puzzle was something I might have solved when I was back in college, but my ticker isnít like it use to be. My son-in-law was over the other day and he saw that I had this cache page up on the screen. And just lie that, lickedy split. He had some coordinates for me. I had a little time before bingo, so the girls and I had the bus driver pull over. Ester said she had to tinkle. While she went about her business, Sally and I went around back and started searching. My glasses fell off and I felt something pull as I reached down to grab them. Oh my darn hip is giving me grief again. In all the commotion, I look up and Sally is smiling at me. Not only did I have to have the puzzle solved for me, but Sally who doesnít geocache made the find. What an adventure.

2/17/10 DaddiesLittleNugget (2 finds)
This is great. My brother is home from MIT. Yesterday I went caching with my dad and brother and I found my first regular type cache. After that, we tried a multi and I thought it was rad to get two different icons. I wanted to see if I could find a puzzle cache and get that icon as well. So when I searched, the closest one I could find was this cache about calculusus or something. The next closest puzzle was like 30 miles away. I hate math. Polymonials and trapazoodals are crazy. When will I be using that junk. I gave it to my brother and the beautiful numbers poured out like a golden waterfall from my Monster can. So off we go and I find this thing in the first place I look. I canít wait to hit submit and see the new icon. Whereís the closest camera cache?

2/17/10 Darryl_WI (2068 finds)
My brother Darryl called and asked if I wanted to join him on a trip to Appleton and spear some Sturgeon. I said sure. That puzzle was his thing. Looked greek to me. Heís the smart one. And he has more finds than me. Easy find.

2/17/10 Darryl_MN (2069 finds)
That puzzle was one piece of the cake. I do calculus in my sleep. I called my bro and asked him to get the spears all sharpened up. I said donít bother solving the puzzle cache thatís down der by dat boat landiní, I got it all figured out. So we get dare and I canít believes my eyes. The durn lake be frozen all over, it is. So we dun founded the cache and hetted home.

2/17/10 SusySpeedyCacher (22,643 finds)
SSC & TLF TFTC

2/17/10 TommyLeadFoot (27,455 finds)
SSC & TLF TFTC


2/17/10 CognitiveDisorderKen (301 finds)
Thank You

2/17/10 Bill (2403 finds)
I was out with my good friend Ken and we had a great time. Heís never had the ability to solve the simple puzzles let alone some calculus. So I assured him Iíd get it done and we walked over there together to find it. What a great kid. Thanks for putting out this cache for Ken and I.

2/17/10 SassySeductiveSamantha (24 finds)
YEAH. My first FTF. I didnít even know a new cache popped up. My computer is in the shop. Too much tweeting I guess. Thanks for picking me up Randy. I owe you one. <wink><wink>

2/17/09 RandyRippedPants (244 finds)
I saw this one pop up and had it solved in no time. I knew if I could get SSS an FTF, I would be certain to get the best swag on earth. TFTC

2/17/09 DonnyTheDevil (666 finds)
I donít solve puzzles, I find caches. I knew exactly where this one was. Puzzle was bogus. Full of mistakes. Did I tell you I donít solve puzzles. Found this laying out in the open. Ok, maybe I did solve it???

2/17/10 BobFromAccountTemps
Iím really good with numbers, but squiggly things, no way. I wrote down AB.CDE FG.HIJ on it and faxed this thing over to BobbyTheBrain. He said he solved this thing a while ago but threw the sheet away. He had his GPS and found the open treasure chest. He gave me a big assist. Thanks for the help Bobby and thanks for this challenging cache.

2/17/10 Angel_In_The_Clouds
Is this puzzle a math problem? The answers came to me like a vision from above. Amen and TFTC

2/17/10 TommyTourDirector (13,617)
A group solve. TFTC

2/17/10 Guest_1 (20)
We worked on this together. TFTC

2/17/10 Guest_2 (21)
#1 printed it, I blew on it. TFTC

2/17/10 Guest_3 (22)
I got D, I got D, I got D. But someone else beat me to the cache

2/17/10 Guest_4 (23)
Gimme an I, gimme a B, gimmie a A, gimmie a D. Whatís that spell? Thatís right. I Bad. TFTC

2/17/10 Guest_5 (24)
I brought the beer. What a flippin good time was had by all. Some Kick A group solves. Sweeeet.

2/17/10 Guest_6 (25)
Calc is not my thing, but I was there. That stuff looks hard. I signed the log for the group.

2/17/10 FacebookFrank (321)
I told Farah Iíd trade her some FarmVille Trees & Animals for some coordinates. She accepted. Fun hunt. Nice container. TFTC

2/17/10 FacebookFarah (452)
What a deal. Things are really booming around my farm now. Easy puzzle. TFTC
 
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BakRdz
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-08-20
Posts: 967
Location: OshVegas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Wow. This is getting out there. I still don't have a strong opinion on the whole topic, but I think I've come to the opinion that:
- if it ticks off the CO, then it's bad form.
- if the CO is the kind to shrug it off (like I am), then no big deal.
- if you don't know the feelings of the CO, then assume it's bad form.

In response to Sandlanders and Johnny Cache's remarks to my comments about WSQ ALRs, I'm going to redirect to my resent post in the Cemetery caches...and more ramblings.....
thread so I don't distract anymore from the original intent of this post. I had only brought it up here as an example of finding your own way to cache.

BTW JC...I'm a he.

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Team Black-Cat
WGA Webmaster
WGA Webmaster



Joined: 2007-09-13
Posts: 6082
Location: Somewhere in Central WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:26 pm Reply with quote Back to top

2/17/09 DonnyTheDevil (666 finds)
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
 
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marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

BakRdz wrote:

- if it ticks off the CO, then it's bad form.



That just means the CO has an attitude. Does not make it good or bad.
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 6022
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:57 pm Reply with quote Back to top

He he, Methinks Johnny Cache may have a second career writing for the Weekly World News (my favorite trashy 'newspaper, btw)! Thanks for the creative log examples and the laughs. This thread could use a few of those.... wink

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Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I've leaned to lean back for a while and let the air clear to avoid the acrid taste of rubber and aged leather.

Being careful not to disparage anyone here, some additional comments on what would mostly be "dittos" in this thread.

Ditto, that the desire to go caching with friends and family can be the most important part of the sport and it shouldn't stand in the way of preventing a group from logging finals of a puzzle, so long as the finders come away appreciating the intent of the puzzle (if there was one), respecting the desires of the CO (to the extent possible on a group solve), and understanding that (some) puzzle owners may be discouraged or disappointed by group logging. These are not outrageous expectations.

Ditto, that everyone chooses to play the game a certain way, a game where there are no winners, no trophy or prize at the end. The only thing you get from this sport is what you put into it Ė your return on investment. If what you invest is gas, company and a list of caches to quickly drive to and log, then that's what you'll get out of it. A memorable day with friends looking for log books to sign. If what you invest is time and the willpower to slog through a slew of tough puzzles for final cords, then you get something else memorable in the form of what you take away form the puzzle - the fact that you solved it, the knowledge of something historical or educational, or at times the disappointment that there wasn't anything gained from all that effort, except that log book signature and a few less aspirin in the bottle.

Ditto, that there exists a very wide range of puzzle / mystery classified caches out there, each of which required some effort on the part of the CO to create and maintain Ė sometimes a few minutes to place a nano on a scoreboard plus a few minutes to create some gibberish to agonize cachers, and at other times hours, days, weeks or even years to research, craft and place a difficult puzzle or create that perfect final container Ė and to each cache a level of respect commensurate with the investment by the CO to create it should be afforded.

Ditto, every cacher has to make this call for themselves and it will not always be right or fitting or amicable to the CO. That most CO's I know are happy to help others get the solves, sometimes in baby steps, sometimes outright, and that an effort should be made, at least for CO's who ask for and welcome it, to contact them first on the process. Not to stroke the CO's ego but to inform them about problems with puzzles, or to provide other insights the CO may not have seen. The most prolific poster in this thread has been an absolute model cacher in this regard, asking me many questions and providing many corrections, some minor, some major, and I think him for it.

Ditto, that an outright invite to go on a bus tour event and play to the desires of every cacher who would love to clear a couple dozen pesky blue question makes is not good sport. This goes beyond the friends and family circle by opening it up to all cachers (yes Marc, I know your "circle" is wide). But, it might as well be an event (hint). While I think the past group tours among friends diminishes the reward for those non-solvers that participate by eliminating what might have been a memorable or educational process of solving the puzzles, it doesn't diminish the enjoyment of the hunt among comrades or the feeling of accomplishment for those that contributed in some way to solving them. I would simply suggest that group tours are better suited to traditional and multi hides for the sole reason that you're not going to stir up CO resentment, which leads to a lot of sore egos (all those the went the distance on the tough solves), which leads to 5-page forum threads, which many feel compelled to contribute to, which leads to lost hours better spent on more important things.

And a big ditto, that there ARE certain expectations about solving puzzles for coordinates just as there are guidelines for placing caches. We're not all going to follow them to the letter, but the least we can do is recognize that they exist. This idea that CO's don't care if their puzzles get solved is a little far-fetched. Perhaps it's not a big deal to many CO's (though I suspect most feal a tiny bit cheated when theirs are shortcut), but what then would be the point of creating puzzles in the first place, if no one was expected to solve them? There are many elements to developing and practicing good geocaching ethics. If anything should be getting passed on to newbies, it's a core group of caching principles. Hide them as you find them (or better if you know they should be), practice a little CITO everywhere you go, trade up or even (unless your intent is to get trackables moving), solves puzzles with the help of the owner first and caching partners second (but don't just tag-a-long on a group puzzle tour where you contributed nothing (but gas perhaps)... you get the idea.

I don't think I've ever treated anyone unfairly or didn't call them as I see them. I am opinionated and as a owner of many many puzzle caches which take many many hours each to contemplate, craft and place, I reserve the right to be. Get out of puzzle caching what you put into it but don't expect every puzzle owner to be pleased as punch if what they invested was exponentially more than you did, as reflected by your non-appreciative, non-engaging, non-inspiring copy-paste logs posted above articulate stories of trail and error, educational adventures both virtual and real and above all, true CO appreciation. If you can live with that, so can I.

Lastly,

Quote:
If you sign the logbook, you can log the cache online.


If you post a "found it" on a puzzle, the least you can do is read the previous logs before you log it (they are right below where your copy-paste log is about to go) and realize that in your haste to hurry on to the next group puzzle solve skip, group signed log book.......... you didn't. (notice how I got that last dig in there?)
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:22 am Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:
(notice how I got that last dig in there?)

I expected nothing less.

seldom|seen wrote:
If you post a "found it" on a puzzle and realize that in your haste to hurry on to the next group puzzle solve skip, group signed log book.......... you didn't.

You must be referring to someone else, as I don't recall posting a found it for a cache I didn't find. I'd be glad to delete the log if you find something to the contrary. Let me know.

seldom|seen wrote:
read the previous logs before you log it

And yet, one more requirement from the all knowing, all seeing and omnipotent Seldom | Seen.

Forgive me father for I have sinned.
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:35 am Reply with quote Back to top

Johnny Cache wrote:
This is about more than one cacher or one owner.


Lighten up Johnny. I'm making a point and using your tour group log of a cache that none of you found the final for, nor signed the log-book of, nor bothered to open the Waypoint nano to where you would have discovered you weren't at the end, yet I think you all posted copy-paste "found it"'s on that cache after your tour. If any of you would have read through the logs, I can't see how you wouldn't have come to the realization that you didn't complete it. Are you trying to tell me that neither you nor your crew logged "found it's"? Do I need to post those here?

You're group is not the first nor will it be the last. It can't be helped and I know it.

But I think I have made my points clearly and concisely and there are many puzzle cache creators and owners who would back me up as evidenced in this thread. I am not omnipotent and I don't expect everyone to play by my rules. I am simply trying to define MY personal expectations for those who log my caches.

I expressed my disappointment with your tour, prior to it. But did I not also help you with daily questions on my puzzles all week leading up to it? At what point prior to my realization that you were going to be touring was I not gracious and helpful? Go ahead and pull all the correspondence from those exchanges and post them here if you think it will help your cause.

I have also thanked you both publicly, here, and in private for all the help you have provided on broken links, misspellings, puzzle clarifications. What more do you want from me? Yes, I called you out on that log, but only to counterpoint all the justifications you made in this thread for your tour being status quo and acceptable from any perspective.

Enough said.
 
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Todd300




Joined: 2009-06-05
Posts: 2460
Location: Menominee, MI

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:47 pm Reply with quote Back to top

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