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Poll
What is your opinion of logging a "found it" on a cache where the logger has not solved the puzzle?
This is ok.
37%
 37%  [ 27 ]
This is not ok.
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Other answer not listed.
33%
 33%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 72


Author Message
bartrod
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-03-12
Posts: 1071
Location: Oconto, WI-The birthplace of western civilization

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Laughing Laughing Laughing
 
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Johnny Cache
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-08-30
Posts: 304
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Lighten up? I thought I had. My last post was only 6 sentences and the one before that was my attempt at some humor. And BTW, donít you think thatís a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black? Donít you think a little self-reflection is in order? Itís great to be opinionated and tell it like it is, but couldnít you do it with a little more thoughtfulness, tact and respect? You donít need to end sentences with ď,get it?Ē You donít need to use UPPERCASE for me to understand your point. You donít need to ďbe terseĒ. You donít have to act childish and stop answering the questions I pose about some puzzles because youíve now labeled me a ďtour leaderĒ. Yes, you were helpful prior to the label, but is this the type of behavior that someone else can expect if they cache with a friend that gets caught not solving a puzzle? Itís not that I donít respect your views nor think you have a right to an opinion on how others should respect your caches, but more on how you treat others and me. Maybe Iím just a wimp. Anyways, those are my opinions. Ask some of your friends or allies as youíve referred to them before. See what they say.

Iíve solved well over 400 puzzle caches and found 376 from over 100 different COís. Not once have I ever been told that I wasnít welcomed to find their cache with a friend. So this was a new thing for me. After reading various post on this thread and others, where I was being referenced, I thought it was time to give my side of the story. And just like Gotta Runís dad gave him advice, my dad did too. ďWhen youíre confronted by a bully, donít let him continue to bully you or anyone else. Punch him in the mouth.Ē

In regards to ďThis is about more than one cacher or one ownerĒ, at the time I wrote it, it was true. Iíve come to have a better understanding with a few other COís in the Valley and it does now appear, that my issue may be with 1 owner. But more than one cacher? That, will always be true.

seldom|seen wrote:
yet I think you all posted copy-paste "found it"'s on that cache after your tour.

Youíre a very smart guy. You know this is completely misleading & false. I never logged this cache and I never C&P. LostBoyScout & 3Hawks havenít even logged a single cache from that day. UncleFun had his logs pretty much done the next day. BQ followed within a day or two. Both C&Píd some text, but then added something different on some of the caches. I methodically took my time over the course of a few days. I hadnít even gotten to that cache, GC1DRZQ, when you sent the email to inquire if we had actually found it. Looking at the notes I took as we went, and comparing it to my pre-event notes, I saw that it was a multi and knew we hadnít completed all the steps. So I replied and told you such. I emailed my 2 friends and informed them that we made a mistake and that their logs would probably be deleted before they had a chance to change them. Iím sure you found some satisfaction in righting this heinous crime.

seldom|seen wrote:
nor bothered to open the Waypoint nano to where you would have discovered you weren't at the end.

False. I bet if you check the nano, youíll find our group name on it. It was dark, it was late, it was somewhere around cache 95 of 100+. I was tired. I, nor anyone else in the group, checked our notes or the cache description. I guess we had gotten too accustomed to nano hides with poor coordinates in uninspiring places. It was a mistake, sorry. UncleFun eluded to that in the note he left on the cache page. For that entire day, there was only one log, that I recall, that our group did not sign and that was because the container was frozen in place. I usually donít log those, as Iím not sure itís good etiquette to log a cache you havenít signed and I know some owners will delete if your signatures not there. But knowing that this was ok with this particular owner, I logged it. I have no idea how any cacher can possibly know what all the differing CO guidelines and intentions are?

Since itís not my geocaching practices that you have a problem with, but the friends I have and the manner in which they play the game, let me try and tell you a little about them.

Now you can continue to think negatively of BQ as a numbers cacher. But if youíd take the time to talk with her and get to know her, youíd realize that she is a heck of a person. Youíd hear pride filled stories of her son and his amazing baseball skills. Youíd hear in her voice how she misses him and that the long commutes to his college, take a little more effort than the games that use to be close by. Youíd hear some of her struggles and get to be part of the discussion on the pros and cons of working for a small vs. large company. And youíd also get to see her smile as she has fun caching with you, forgetting everything else for the moment. You might even get to witness her slow down the pace a wee bit and engage with a couple young girls for more than 6 hours, while their family joined our caching group. I spoke with the father later that night and he said it was one of the best days of their lives.

If you stopped to talk to UncleFun, youíd realize that this guy would probably give you the shirt off his back, if you needed it. You might get an opportunity to meet his gorgeous wife, Geocaching Widow, that graciously lets Dave play with his geocaching friends. You might hear a few things about the 2 fine young men that they are raising and if you happen to stop by the house on the spur of the moment, you might catch those 2 young men running around in boxers. And you might look forward to the Christmas Card you get with the stories from the previous year.

With 3Hawks, youíd get a smattering of some hilarious stories of his many trials and tribulations on his cache hunts. From his uncanny ability to find caches without coordinates to the wonderful relationship he has with woodland creatures and how much they like the taste of him. You might learn about the nut job cacher that was so furious that 3hawks picked up a TB, that the guy figured out his phone number and called his house and threatened him. You might feel bad when he parks his car in front of your house at 4:00am to gladly accept a ride to cache with you, only to return and see a parking ticket. You might find out that a stuffed raccoon he acquired is now the sleeping companion of his beautiful little girl.

With LostBoyScout, you might learn about his dedication to the Boy Scouts, and that his love for the Scouts is shared with his brother (UncleFun). You might get to hear some really old caching stories of trips with WindowLicker and GreenAndGold. You might get to hear some of the funniest one-liners youíve ever heard. And if you step back and watch him hunt a cache, youíll see an eagle-eye master who has an uncanny ability to zero in on nearly every cache.

You can continue to judge them and myself as you wish, but I will continue to consider them friends, no matter how they choose to geocache.

And for anyone that thinks that this has gotten way to personal and should be handled in private, I like to think of it as a PSA to anyone in the WGA community that wants to cache in Appleton with friends. I hope your experience is more pleasant than mine was.
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:
...yet I think you all posted copy-paste "found it"'s on that cache after your tour.
I did say "I think", there were a lot of copy paste logs (with a sprinkle of "caught a cattail in the eye" add-ons) to wade through, but excessively little about the puzzles themselves. When I get a slew of logs that all start the same way and look almost identical, I pretty much hit the delete key unless I see a substantial add-on like yours.

johnney cache wrote:
...it was somewhere around cache 95 of 100+. I was tired. I guess we had gotten too accustomed to nano hides with poor coordinates in uninspiring places.
Even stop to consider this may be intentional? Most of my puzzle caches are all about the puzzle, not the final. If you short-cut the puzzles all you get out of many of them are uninspiring nanos or keyholders stuck in uninspiring urban places. You know that since you've done so many of mine. And thanks for the PSA, which I approve. If you find yourself geocaching in the Appleton area with a large group of friends and 80% of you haven't solved many of the puzzles the other 20% has, please do yourself a favor and skip them until next time, at least those that belong to S|S. You may cheat yourself of a smiley, but at least you aren't cheating those who found it legitimately.

Thanks for sharing the personal stories of your friends. They are touching and I harbor no ill will to them personally, how could I since I don't know most of them from Adem. The only frame of reference I have is how they choose to play the game. I pretty sure I witnessed your group short-cut a whole bunch of puzzles to log numbers.

Uncle_Fun, BQ, LostBoyScout and 3Hawks I want to know that I never made any insinuations or intended any defamation of character beyond spelling out the short-cut method you used to find my puzzle caches. You missed out on some challenging and rewarding puzzles in the Valley (Ask Johnny how much fun he had solving them) for the sake of posting a high day of 100 finds and in the process you made those cachers, who spent in many cases hours solving them, feel cheated. I know, I talk to my caching friends too.

You sound like incredible people and I hate being on this side of an issue with you on the other. But, as you can tell, I feel strongly about puzzle solving or at least participating in solving and will continue to be vocal about it no matter who is on the other side. You choose to play the game a certain way that makes others feel less rewarded in the way they choose to play.

I don't geocache to socialize, many people do and I am quite sure my myopic view of the sport's reward is quite different that the majority because of this. So yes, perspective is good. Mine is obviously skewed to one end of the spectrum since I have a active placed to found ratio on puzzles of 159 to 126 (more placed than found) and an overall ratio of 957 to 214 active or about 1 cache placed to 4 cahces found. Obviously, we can't all play that way, it would be super-saturation, and I understand that I am in the minority. But without some of us prolific hiders you numbers guys wouldn't have many caches to log in the first place.

Perhaps Johnny, if you and your TC's had a ratio in little more in favor of placed caches to found caches, you wouldn't consider short-cutting solves as you would more fully appreciate and value of what goes into crafting unique puzzles. After all with a group placed to found ratio of... well, here are your numbers:

Total combined finds for 3Hawks (4749), Uncle_Fun (6632), Bushwhacking Queen (11371), JC and the CCís (3962), Lost Boyscout (2957) = 29,671

Total active placed caches by 3Hawks (3), Uncle_Fun (33), Bushwhacking Queen (6), JC and the CCís (0), Lost Boyscout (3) = 45, and of all those only 1 puzzle cache amongst you.

That's 45 active caches to 29,671 finds. I'd argue that your collective perspective is a little skewed in the opposite direction. Perhaps if we both tracked a little closer to center I wouldn't have to get so defensive about copy/paste group logging and tour finders might discover that adding a line like "sorry we didn't solve this one but we know how it is solved and it's a neat puzzle" would go a long way in keeping puzzles owners and bone fide finders from feeling slighted.

Now are we done?
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I can't speak for the others who view these forums, but I think it's about time to take the feud to PM's cuz you are both starting to sound like jerks. No offense meant to either one of you.
 
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Todd300




Joined: 2009-06-05
Posts: 2440
Location: Menominee, MI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:06 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Like I said in a previous post....

Image
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:38 am Reply with quote Back to top

I see no reason to censor the debate on this topic even if it is passionate on either side. In the OT thread we have a whole topic with over 1,400 pages of drivel and over 21,000 replies and that horse is still kicking. There's always the option to stop watching this topic or just stop clicking on the link.

I started this poll because I truly wanted to take a temperature reading of the Wisconsin geo-community. If anyone believes I had some other nefarious purpose I can't change your mind. The reason I did it as a poll rather than simply a forum posting was that I many people will "comment" by way of a poll response, when they will not comment in a public forum, particularly when the discussion becomes heated.

I'm not sure how representative the voting responses are of the community. It seems like the responses have pretty much stopped or at least slowed to a trickle, and it's pretty well split--probably weighted more heavily to the "It's OK" side if you consider that some of the "Other" responses equate to "It's OK sometimes" according to the reasons stated by some of the "Other" voters.

It does seem like a small sample but I haven't compared it yet against other polls. Of course, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things because, as has been pointed out, a smilely is a smilely. But I have found, and continue to find, the posted comments useful--even the contentious ones. Overall this thread has confirmed some things I had thought, overturned my thinking on some other issues, and will shape the way I handle our puzzle caches going forward.
 
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marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:10 am Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:

Perhaps Johnny, if you and your TC's had a ratio in little more in favor of placed caches to found caches, you wouldn't consider short-cutting solves as you would more fully appreciate and value of what goes into crafting unique puzzles. After all with a group placed to found ratio of... well, here are your numbers:

Total combined finds for 3Hawks (4749), Uncle_Fun (6632), Bushwhacking Queen (11371), JC and the CCís (3962), Lost Boyscout (2957) = 29,671

Total active placed caches by 3Hawks (3), Uncle_Fun (33), Bushwhacking Queen (6), JC and the CCís (0), Lost Boyscout (3) = 45, and of all those only 1 puzzle cache amongst you.

That's 45 active caches to 29,671 finds. I'd argue that your collective perspective is a little skewed in the opposite direction. Perhaps if we both tracked a little closer to center I wouldn't have to get so defensive about copy/paste group logging and tour finders might discover that adding a line like "sorry we didn't solve this one but we know how it is solved and it's a neat puzzle" would go a long way in keeping puzzles owners and bone fide finders from feeling slighted.

Now are we done?


No, I do not think this will ever be done.

I have 8500 finds, 400 hidden. And I am an associate of Johnny and his TC. I can guess where I fit in.

So, what the point? One that makes sense?

There are a couple of adages that come to mind, and one that concerns a horse. No, not beating the dead horse!

You can lead a horse to water, butt you can not make him drink.

So, you can make your point here, but do not expect anyone to change his or her mind to agree with you.
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 733
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:18 am Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:

I have 8500 finds, 400 hidden. And I am an associate of Johnny and his TC. I can guess where I fit in.

That's why you of all people should know better.

I don't expect to change the caching habits of long-time game players. I do expect cachers who follow these threads to understand where I am coming from, I don't expect them all to agree.

If your perception is that I am a horse's arse for expecting people to make an effort to solve my puzzles before they go a hunting, so be it. If you, on the other hand, tend to agree that an effort should be made and I have a right to defend my views, that's good to. If all that comes out of this is a fence-sitter or two giving it a second thought the next time they read, '2020 Puzzle Bus Tour, climb abord and clear the valley of pesky ?'s' then I've accomplished something.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:38 am Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
So, you can make your point here, but do not expect anyone to change his or her mind to agree with you.


I guess what has surprised me the most is not the lack of agreement on the topic (otherwise there wouldn't be a need to discuss it), but the lack of understanding of an opposing point of view. I do understand the appeal of logging puzzle caches by any means possible; after all, our team keeps track of our numbers too. Stats are part of this game.

On the other hand, there is an incredulity on the other side that this issue would even bother anyone. If we are bothered by it, we are essentially told to quit placing caches.

We (the geocaching community) frown on posting spoilers in logs. In the puzzle forums here, we state "Note that this forum should not be used to post dead giveaways or spoilers for any puzzle cache." Yet it is OK to hand a bus full of people a spreasheet of puzzle coordinates? Yes, I am making an assumption here, having not gone on a tour, but it is a reasonable assumption based on reading many logs, talking to people, and seeing the posted details for tours. Maybe I am wrong and everyone on that bus will come with some good-faith effort at solving the puzzles.

It's also somewhat ironic that we (again, the geocaching community) will generally adhere to some wishes of owners, such as abstaining from hunting a tribute cache until the tributee has a shot at the FTF, unless and until the CO says it's OK. But CO's wishes on puzzle caches? Not so much I guess.

So, the "horse to water" analogy doesn't quite work. On the "not OK" side, all we can do is stand at the river bank and plead with the horse to please come over because the water is really nice. On the other side, you can pour water down the horse's throat, just don't be baffled by the fact that he doesn't like it.
 
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AstroDon




Joined: 2007-01-29
Posts: 69

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Can someone explain to me how one person's experience can have such a profound effect on another's experience?

From what I've always seen and dealt with - no two people will have the same experience even when in engaging in the same activity at the same time. My experiences - good or bad - are unique to me and in no way does someone else's experience add to or lessen mine.

I just seem to hear this statement as an argument, defense, supportive statement etc quite often in the WGA threads and at least one or twice in thread alone. I would genuinely like to hear people's explanation to this. I admit, I'm completely baffled by such statements.

Oh - this is Kat responding. Didn't realize hubby was autologged in as himself and not AstroD.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

If I'm running a race and someone pulls a Rosie Ruiz because they wanted to run the race the way they wanted to, it's going to bug me even though I would have no chance of winning because I'm slow Smile. So it shouldn't matter to me, since what they did has no impact on my own performance and experience--but it would.

If I go back to take some college courses--let's say I'm auditing them so it's just for my own edification, not a degree--and someone obtains some test answers and uses them because that's the way they wanted to take the test, it's going to bug me even though what they did has absolutely no impact on my own test experience.

It's not a perfect parallel--back to that "rules for logging" issue again--but neither do I think it's an apples-and-oranges comparision....more like a Gala and Braeburn comparison...

Now, without the online forum that is integral to geocaching, none of this would ever be known to me. I could have a whole greyhound bus full of poeple shortcut one of our letterbox puzzles and no one would be the wiser. But, I do know it with geocaches--also because some people go out of their way to wave it in my face--so, it bugs me. 'Bout all I can tell you.
 
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MawandPawKettle
WGA Member



Joined: 2009-04-26
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We avoided puzzle caches like the plague for the first couple of months that we cached. A new cache appeared 4 miles away last summer and we finally logged it Sunday. That cache had us so frustrated that my husband wanted to avoid any and all of them. After we logged our dnf, we e-mailed the CO with a question about solving it. Even after he gave us a hint it took a while to get the first waypoint. Sunday we refused to leave until we had our signature in the logbook! I would have gladly joined a puzzle cache tour if it wouldíve helped us figure it out sooner. Isnít caching about getting outdoors and having fun with friends? Puzzle caches take Ďem or leave Ďem. I feel sorry for the poor horse, he not been beaten enough? Laughing
Dawn
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

gotta run wrote:
because some people go out of their way to wave it in my face


exactly.
 
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AstroD-Team
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-05-19
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:48 pm Reply with quote Back to top

gotta run wrote:
If I'm running a race and someone pulls a Rosie Ruiz because they wanted to run the race the way they wanted to, it's going to bug me even though I would have no chance of winning because I'm slow Smile. So it shouldn't matter to me, since what they did has no impact on my own performance and experience--but it would.

If I go back to take some college courses--let's say I'm auditing them so it's just for my own edification, not a degree--and someone obtains some test answers and uses them because that's the way they wanted to take the test, it's going to bug me even though what they did has absolutely no impact on my own test experience.

It's not a perfect parallel--back to that "rules for logging" issue again--but neither do I think it's an apples-and-oranges comparision....more like a Gala and Braeburn comparison...

Now, without the online forum that is integral to geocaching, none of this would ever be known to me. I could have a whole greyhound bus full of poeple shortcut one of our letterbox puzzles and no one would be the wiser. But, I do know it with geocaches--also because some people go out of their way to wave it in my face--so, it bugs me. 'Bout all I can tell you.


Thanks for the response. I'll take a Braeburn over a Gala. Smile

For me, it seems from your examples it's more of an emotional response (due to conflicting standards perhaps) based on other's actions rather than said actions having a true impact/effect on one's own experience.

I hold out in case others want to chime in.

Thanks for letting me hijack you thread. wink

_________________
It is those whose case is weak who make the most clamour. Pier Anthony 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:33 pm Reply with quote Back to top

AstroD-Team wrote:
Thanks for letting me hijack you thread. wink


It's your thread too! Everyone's for that matter.

Well, there are fewer puzzles for everyone to fret over in the Green Bay area now. Did a bunch of archiving today for various reasons. Some puzzles were just ciphers and as such were really only marginally enjoyable, especially with the proliferation of cipher puzzles that happened after we put them out (and still continues today). Others were decent puzzles, but really uninspired finals. Other puzzle ideas had just run their course.

We will be using the comments from this thread to shape our puzzle placements going forward. I think to save us some of that "mental distress," we'll focus on combining challenging puzzles with challenging terrain. That serves a number of objectives. First, the bus doesn't stop at high terrain puzzles as a rule. Second, that means we won't be cluttering up valuable urban park-and-grab territory with caches that are "barricaded behind complicated hoops and barrels." Twisted Evil Third, since we've made such a big stink about "quality," I suppose we better put our caches where our mouth is...uh...or something like that. And fourth, well, we just like the tough ones.
 
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