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Trudy and the beast
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-07-26
Posts: 2375
Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:22 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I view this issue as being driven by outsiders to conform to their way of doing things. JO in NB went to an event where the other six attendees each logged one attended. AH went to a huge event in RX with 28 others who each logged their one attended. No temps, no multiple logs, just a bunch of people gathered around a camp fire and complaining about the FUN we have at WGA events.

We are not talking about a change of rules here, we are talking about how we plan our parties. We should not feel obligated to do it the way the rest of the world does it or says we should do it. These are our events. They have been done this way since 2001. Thjeir popularity has grown to the point where we are bringing several scores of cachers and they are coming from greater distances than ever before. Why, because we are having FUN. Change the formula and we can all be doing what they do in other states. WGA events are great the way they are. We don't need to listen to a bunch of winers on gc.com complaining about right or wrong. What is wrong with our events? Some people can't get to them. What is right about them? They are enjoyed by all who attend.
 
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AstroD-Team
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-05-19
Posts: 779

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting topic indeed. My opinion is that since there is no rule currently in place at Geocaching.com that says you cannot log multiple finds, why should the WGA make up a rule?

It seems the best idea would be to change the "Attend" to read "Event Hides Found". We all agree that logging "Attended" is a silly way to do it. Why can't they make this modification?

I really don't care what people in other states think about the way we log our finds. The first 5 words in the Beasts predictions thread hit the nail on the head "It's all about the numbers". People in other states are jealous that so many people in Wisconsin are putting out the numbers we are. Apparently we just have nothing better to do around here Image

I say leave the regulation out of it and let people log as they see fit. If Jeremy wanted to have a rule stating no multiple logs, then there would be one and we would be abiding by it.

Since this rule would only apply to WGA sponsored events it really won't cut down on what people in other states see as the problem anyway. In fact, it may compound it even more. They will start asking why people can only log one find at an "official" event but can go grab 30-40 the next weekend at a "non-official" one.

I have added my gas to the thread, who has the matches?

Don from AstroD-Team
 
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Cache_boppin_BunnyFuFu
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-05-06
Posts: 2008
Location: Waukesha, WI, US

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Have to agree with T&TB. Like I mentioned in my earlier post. I checked out some events around the country and all they are is get togethers with no caching mentioned. I still think it's a jealousy thing Image.

Neener neener neeeeeeeener

I'm bad... I know!!

[This message has been edited by Cache_boppin_BunnyFuFu (edited 07-28-2005).]
 
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Digital_Dan
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-10-19
Posts: 64
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It seems fairly well divided down the middle for those that want to log multiple finds at Events, and those that don't. The good thing is, the WGA can make both sides happy by NOT implementing a rule that clearly half the members don't like. Those that do not want to record Multiple finds can do just that, those that want to, can. My biggest concern with making such a rule would be that many of those cachers that like logging the numbers, come to Events so they can increase their finds quickly. Take that away from them, and many will NOT show up at Events any more. When that occurs, what have you really accomplished? I think someone else mentioned it already, but "What's the purpose of an Event anyhow"? To Socalize? Cache? or Both? If it's simply to Socalize, then don't have Temp Caches. If it's to Cache & Socalize, then not allowing finds to be recorded seems counterproductive to me. Obviously my vote is to allow finds to be recorded if a cacher wants to. What's it really hurting?
 
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abcdmCachers
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-09-25
Posts: 135
Location: Brookfield, WI

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Good discussion so far. But it's too bad we have to have it again and again. Why doesn't GC.com just add a new log entry for event caches ("found temporary") and track temporaries separate from events just as they have separate categories for other cache types like multi's, virtuals and letterboxes. I would think this would end the controversy once and for all. I assume people have asked GC.com management about doing this. What has their response been?

I argued in the past that temporaries are their own beast (see my comments near the end of this topic on 12/8/04: [url=http://www.wi-geocaching.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000639.html).]http://www.wi-geocaching.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000639.html).[/url] I would support a 1 log per event decision, but would prefer a gc.com solution.
 
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GrouseTales
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 3399
Location: West Allis, Wi

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:05 am Reply with quote Back to top

Excellent, excellent discussion folks !! Some really good comments so far. I appreciate the thoughts w/o any flames Image.

keep'em coming
 
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Docapi
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-04-21
Posts: 33
Location: Boyd, WI

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:01 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by abcdmCachers:
[BWhy doesn't GC.com just add a new log entry for event caches ("found temporary") and track temporaries separate from events just as they have separate categories for other cache types like multi's, virtuals and letterboxes. I would think this would end the controversy once and for all. I assume people have asked GC.com management about doing this. What has their response been?



I (and others) suggested it in the Ridiulous numbers thread that popped up after the campout. Here was Jeremy's response:

quote:

QUOTE (Docapi @ Jun 6 2005, 09:37 AM)
I know what I was suggesting was adding an option when logging on an event page in the drop down list like "Event Cache Found" or something similar. When it shows in our stats it could have a different icon for caches found at events.

No. No temporary caches. No special log type. No "count" find for caches found during an event. I don't know how much clearer I need to be.


--------------------
Jeremy Irish
Groundspeak - The Language of Location™


He doesn't seem interested in resolving the issue. It seems that he would rather have the forum angst come up every time it happens.

His responses in that thread he statwed that he felt it was "trivial" "stupid" and "selfishness", yet he refuses to come down firmly on one side or another.

I think he somehow enjoys the angst, since he could easily put a stop to it one way or another if he wanted, yet lets the debate rage on.

We aren't going to get any help there.

 
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greyhounder
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-18
Posts: 3342
Location: Fort Atkinson, WI, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Since, in the greater scheme of things, find count really doesn't mean anything (and I can be a very compettive cacher when it comes to numbers, so I know that numbers mean something on a personal level) what does it matter -- people can do whatever they want.

Some people claim finds on their own caches....
Some people claim multiple finds on caches for each time they have visited it...
Some people claim finds when they didn't find the cache, but know where it was supposed to be...

It might come down to a matter of conformity -- or not. Do we want to do what everyone else does and avoid the complaints of other cachers from other states? When you play golf, or basketball, or whatever, does it really matter if you "fudge" the numbers a bit? Are you having fun? I think that's what really matters.

If I become one of the top cachers and a majority of my finds are from events, have I really spoiled the sport/game/hobby for every other geocacher? Does my find count really have that much of an impact in YOUR life?

Some people go on major caching sprees and take a long time to log their finds -- some can't even remember all the caches they did find? Should they be reprimanded for not being accurate in their find counts? They're not claiming all their finds -- I don't know how many caches they've actually found!! How can I ever find more caches than them?

Just food for thought from me. It's kind of cheesy, isn't it?

Bec

[This message has been edited by greyhounder (edited 07-29-2005).]
 
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Uncle_Fun
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-12-26
Posts: 267
Location: Franklin, WI USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

1 Find=1 Log!

End of story.

Uncle_Fun
 
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Team Honeybunnies
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-05-03
Posts: 1029
Location: Stevens Point,WI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:40 am Reply with quote Back to top

It seems interesting that we have Jeep TBs and Project APE caches and talk of podcast caches, all interesting but fluff, yet we can't get the higher ups to fill the needs of the community(referencing Docapi's post). I enjoyed meeting everybody at the event we attended, but we were there to cache, just like everybody else. If I were not at an event and somebody gave me coordinates to a cache that did not show up on my stats and wasn't acknowledged by GC.com I probably wouldn't do it. There are too many to do yet that do show up.
Other states events seem to revolve around socializing and oh yeah, there are some caches nearby. I don't think GC ever anticipated events like ours and needs to be a living, breathing, evolving organism. Correct me if I'm wrong. Be cool Honeybunny!
 
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OuttaHand
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-05-19
Posts: 203
Location: Elkhorn, WI USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:03 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Team Honeybunnies:
...and needs to be a living, breathing, evolving organism. ...


There it is. That's the real key, I think.

Geocaching started with a guy, a 5-gallon bucket, and some posted coordinates. If the purists REALLY want to keep it pure, where are the 5-gallon buckets? Why are there Travel Bugs? Why are there Event Caches? Why are there Micro's? Why was a "Small" size created?
None of these things were there in the beginning of geocaching.
But a need for them was seen, and they were created. Well, guess what Jeremy --- maybe there's a NEED to evolve this whole Event cache situation as well ! If we're going to define geocaches as we have, then the temporary finds hidden at event caches DO qualify. Therefore, there needs to be a way to log EACH ONE of them and receive credit for finding them.
It's not (necessarily) that we NEED those finds to make an event successful. But if you can draw more people to them by making the caches log-able, then that seems to be a plus. Heck, a store with good products should not need to have a sale. But they know that they need something more to draw in people. There is so much competition for a person's time these days that there needs to be a reason to do something. To me, part of the reason of going to an event cache is to get more finds. No -- it's not the WHOLE reason. But it is definitely a part.

 
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Mama Fishcacher
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-11-23
Posts: 468
Location: Near Madison, WI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:59 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by fishcachers:
All I'm going to add is that this is the most interesting and sane discussion I've seen on this topic yet. Image Awesome!

~MF



Wow!!! The interesting-ness and sane-ness continues!!!! This is fantastic!!! Image Lots of great food-for-thought!

~MF
 
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Mama Fishcacher
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-11-23
Posts: 468
Location: Near Madison, WI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:06 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by greyhounder:
Since, in the greater scheme of things, find count really doesn't mean anything (and I can be a very compettive cacher when it comes to numbers, so I know that numbers mean something on a personal level) what does it matter -- people can do whatever they want.

Some people claim finds on their own caches....
Some people claim multiple finds on caches for each time they have visited it...
Some people claim finds when they didn't find the cache, but know where it was supposed to be...

It might come down to a matter of conformity -- or not. Do we want to do what everyone else does and avoid the complaints of other cachers from other states? When you play golf, or basketball, or whatever, does it really matter if you "fudge" the numbers a bit? Are you having fun? I think that's what really matters.

If I become one of the top cachers and a majority of my finds are from events, have I really spoiled the sport/game/hobby for every other geocacher? Does my find count really have that much of an impact in YOUR life?

Some people go on major caching sprees and take a long time to log their finds -- some can't even remember all the caches they did find? Should they be reprimanded for not being accurate in their find counts? They're not claiming all their finds -- I don't know how many caches they've actually found!! How can I ever find more caches than them?

Just food for thought from me. It's kind of cheesy, isn't it?

Bec

[This message has been edited by greyhounder (edited 07-29-2005).]



Bec, I like your post a lot. That really made a lot of sense to me.

I say allow the multiple logs if we want and ignore the subject on the gc.com boards because that's really the only place we get flak from in regards to it. If we don't get involved in their petty bickering on the subject, they'll soon learn to let it die.

I'll have some crackers to go with the cheese. Image

~MF
 
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MajorBrat
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-04-07
Posts: 303
Location: Silver Lake, WI USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The WGA is not the only state doing these types of events, and we are not the only ones having trouble w/ deciding how best to approach the logs. We are however the ones being made examples of. This bothered me at first because it felt like the rest of the Geocaching community was picking on us. At some point (docapi's mentioned thread) Bob and I were singled out as the "bad guys" and many people piped in on their version of what he and I should be doing with our logs. We went back and forth for a bit in an attempt to justify what we were doing, but then we figured a couple of things out.

First: Most of the people who were commenting spent more time in front of their computer screens than on an actual trail (I even posted stats on the thread...oh yes, that really ticked them off!). The ones who were out caching didn't seem to care what we were doing.

We spent a lot of time dealing w/ emails from other cachers. The end result? After the guy who started the thread took a good look at what we were really doing at our events he got over himself and posted a note in our favor. He apologized via email and went on with his life. Others however kept the thread going. Bob and I had already walked away from it.

Second: We know what is put in to every cache we log. We know that it was a matter of someone hiding it, giving up some numbers for a GPSR input, a walk, a hunt, and a hootie. So for us that means one thing. A LOG on our groundspeak page.

Bob and I attended an event last month in Bloomington/Normal, IL (GCP11V). There were a number of temporary hides there. At the time of the event they were attempting to acquire approval of a page they could use to log these hides, as well as future CIGA event hides. It didn't go through so they did what has been done by others. They hid a permanent micro (GCPET4) and all temps were logged on that page. The micro will remain but future seekers will only log one find. After talking w/ several of their board members (they're caching buddies of ours), we learned that this is what CIGA plans to do for each event. (Team Badger has used a similar method to commemorate gatherings.)

Missouri, Texas, Florida...many states, many methods...

From my view: Only a cache owner can govern how and when a cache may be logged. They are the ones who set the rules for the cache. If the cache owner allows 1 find or 100 finds...who cacres?! If you were there, you saw the logbook (stamp, sticker), put your name/mark in the appropriate spot then...log it! The only time I have issue w/ a log is if the person didn't see the cache...in the physical sense! A no find is a no find! (well said by the way, Bec)

After much babbling on, I seem to have forgotten to make my point, so here goes. If you found it, log it...if you choose! (Some of us haven't even logged all the permanents, right Socko?)

MB

 
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Commander Bob
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-04-07
Posts: 45
Location: Trevor, WI USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Although my communications officer (AKA: MajorBrat) has already stated some opinions on this subject, I feel the need to bring up a few of my own concerns.

First off, I'm wondering what compelled the board to consider this change to begin with. Is it because of outside opinion (read disagreement, disapproval, etc.) from cachers who have never attended a WGA event? What we do as the WGA should be of and about the members of the WGA and to heck with what others think. I attempted to give credibility to our practice on the GC message boards, with less than stellar results. The majority of those opposed to the practice shared one common belief, that we were only doing it as a way to inflate our numbers. As wrong as that view may be, it may appear so to others. The only practical solution is to have a specific category for temporary event caches, but seeing as how TPTB have categorically denied such a solution, we are left with our present dilemma. Either we do away with logging temporaries altogether, or we continue to circumvent the system by logging multiple attended logs on our event pages. Many people have read into the decision to change event caches from "found" to "attended" to mean Jeremy Irish doesn't want temporary caches to be logged, which is not the case. Here is his official quote:

"To get into step with Cache In Trash Out events, I have added two log types, "Attended" and "Will Attend" to allow people to RSVP for events and to log them once the event has occurred.
The "Attended" log type counts as a "find" so the "Found It" item (which didn't really make sense anyway) has been removed"

There was no hidden agenda against stopping temporary event cache logs. Jeremy also had this to say:

"Temp caches aren't allowed on the site. And as I indicated in countless threads in the past, I think logging attended twice for an event is stupid, and posting additional logs to "match" whatever "count" you determined your numbers should be is equally stupid. However I have no plans to be the point police and create complicated rules for determining what counts as a find.
That is up to the cache listing owner to decide."

They neither care to nor wish to be involved in this discussion, and I have to agree with them that it should be left up to the individual cache owner to decide how logs are permitted. What we don't need is more rules telling us how we should or shouldn't play our "game". (Apologies to Cathunter)

My second concern is about the events themselves. Like it or not, the opportunity to gain significant numbers is an appealing draw to many cachers. With today’s demands on everyone’s time, many families have to choose carefully how they spend their free time. Not to mention the extra time and gas it takes to drive hours from home to attend an event. Sure the camaraderie is great, but there is a common ground to everyone who attends, the opportunity to do something we all love to do...find caches! We are all Geocachers first and foremost. It's what we love to do. It's what we talk about. It's what we eat, sleep and breathe! Well ok, maybe some more so than others, but you get the point. For many of us, it's the opportunity to share the hunt while socializing at the same time, the rare opportunity to meet friends from opposite sides of the state. But take away the hunts, and it's nothing more than a social occasion that many people will just take a pass on. I can't speak for others, but I know every WGA event I attend, I make sure to drop some money in the donation box, for all the hard work and expense that creating these events costs. I'm sure a drop in attendance will be felt hardest there as well.

Finally, I'd like to suggest what seems to me to be the second best solution. A LOTEC page. For those that are unfamiliar, LOTEC stands for Log Only Temporary Event Cache. Basically it's a cache page created specifically for logging temporary event caches. It would be created by the WGA just like a regular cache page, so there would be the found it smiley when you log your finds instead of the attended icon. The cache page would be activated the day of the event, then temporarily disabled a few days afterwards, giving everyone an opportunity to log their finds, and preventing the "phantom" cache from appearing in pocket queries. The page can then be activated and disabled as needed for future events. I believe this is exactly what Missouri does. I think it's the best alternative to what seems to be a flaw in the system. Those that choose to log temporaries may do so on this page, those that choose not to may just ignore it. I believe its best left up to the individual cacher.

My vote is to keep our present policy, and let the people choose for themselves, not dictate what they can and cannot do.

Commander Bob
 
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