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sbukosky
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 644
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Well! I'm happy to see that being in lockstep with Jeremey is being challenged by more than myself. Welcome aboard people! Geocaching is bigger than geocaching.com and WGA IS geocaching in Wisconsin!

For the topic, Yes we should continue to log each and every temporary cache of a recognized event. It is what most people enjoy.




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Steve Bukosky
Waukesha
 
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Opossum
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-05-11
Posts: 210
Location: WI, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:31 am Reply with quote Back to top

I think Jeremy has a good point: geocaches should be able to be found by everyone. Perhaps the language he used in getting his point across is out of frustration in repeatedly trying to get his point across. Permanent caches help keep people from forming self-absorbed snobbish sub-groups. I was going to use the example of how some WGA members comment about everything that doesn't find favor in their eyes, but then remembered why I don't read the GC boards.

Many made the point that WGA events are a lot of fun because of the temporary hides. Some people see temps as "stupid" because of the vast amount of effort wasted on placing and removing hides that are temporary. Others see temporaries as elitist, as only people in the WGA are able to hunt the caches. Others see it as a way to increase find statistics. Others have other complaints. However, WGA events are publicly posted and open to everyone. The overwhelming majority of attendees hunt the caches because, well, they're fun! WGA events have a great turnout and the members are enthusiastic. If you want to socialize, you can team up with whomever you want, if you can keep up with them. Caches that couldn't normally be done are now possible. You can try out a new GPS live in the field before you buy it, thanks to those enthusiastic members. There are so many reasons to have temporary caches I'm just going to stop here, because I could never list them all.

Commander Bob mentioned the gas savings. That, and everything I just mentioned is really off-topic, but I'll admit these are all reasons to have temporary caches, so let me continue with that for just a moment. A lot of people don't think driving around to find parking is fun. Many people have stated how gas and tires become an expense after a while. Other people say this is part of the hunt and were pretty direct in voicing this opinion when I said how much I and the dogs hate driving around needlessly, so I'm going to be just as direct: If you want to drive around aimlessly, do it on Sunday morning and clog up traffic with the rest of the old folks. The rest of us have a life to get on with.

Getting back to the topic at hand, temporary caches should be luggable. While statistics aren't the reason to attend WGA events, they should accurately reflect your efforts in the sport. (What? I said "luggable?" I said "loggable," didn't I? That just shows how much I hate driving around for no reason. Aren't those the same people who complain about cars ruining the environment anyway? Thanks Mole, I'm so far off topic…)

Getting back from Mole's interruption, the find statistics are supposed to be a reflection of how many geocaches you've found. While Jeremy Irish may not see it this way, he also gives us the leeway to do what we want, which is great. I think the WGA should give the same option, to log events multiple times if we want. For some people, myself included, it just might balance out the numbers for all the finds I signed the log book on and didn't have time to log online. Speaking of which, I'm going to go do that now. (Another interruption from Mole.) I'm going to go do that after I post the hints I promised for my caches. (pause) I'm going to do that after I post hints and get some remodeling done. (Mole is such a sweetie.)

Opossum of Mole_n_Opossum

[laughing] (that was SO off-topic)
 
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Folk Trakers
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-04-30
Posts: 346
Location: Racine, WI, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:40 am Reply with quote Back to top

This has been a real stumper for Mrs. Traker and myself. We have attended events in other states that had temp hides…with the exception of MOGA the hides were not that good…in fact that is where we first saw the infamous ‘pocket caches.’ We have taken the position on our own that while at events we no longer log caches that we did not find with our GPS…examples are the ‘fido cache’, the ‘pocket cache’, or the ‘chop stick cache’…if you want to log them then go right ahead but we will not.

It is NOT up to the cacher to decide whether to log it or not it is up to the person/team that is responsible for the cache to decide who can log what. We have done multi caches that took all day (8+ hours) and only were allowed to log it once by the owner. We have also done traditional caches that allowed you to log the extra bonus cache at the coordinates listed inside. The owner of the cache is the one who decides who can log what.

So the WGA board is asking us what we want to do for OUR events. I would like to thank Brian for asking us. The Board could have just acted without our input but they have not, so THANK YOU.

We love the WGA events and we feel that we should not yield to those that have never attended one of our events. Our organization is by far one of the best in the country and we should all be very proud of that fact. The temp hides we have are amazing and could be caches on their own but we usually make arrangements to ‘leave no trace’ in the park. We will continue to log the temp finds as long as they are allowed. We have suggested the use of LOTEC. We have seen it used in MO and it works very well. Since you log all of your temp finds on the LOTEC page it shows up as caches in your stats instead of events.

With all of this being said, the events are truly amazing, but it may be time for our organization to make a change. I feel that the time has come for us to say adieu to temp caches at the WGA events. Our events are no longer events they are cache trips only with temp caches instead of real ones.

Do any of you remember T&tb’s breakfast events? The purpose of an event is for us to get together and share stories, ideas, and information. Afterward we can head out as a group or individually and take in the local caches in the area…sometimes placed there because of the upcoming event. It is a chance for us (Folk Trakers) to get to a different part of the state and see what you guys are doing there. The WGA has gotten so large that the events are less social and more temps…primarily to reduce clustering at the hides. Maybe I’m the only one (Mrs. Traker is unsure of my thoughts) but I think we should look at alternatives to the way we are doing things?

I know this isn’t the clearest of posts but it is how I (Mr. Traker) feel. As long as the temps are there and loggable, we will log them. I’m just hoping that we will start to see a few more true events in our future.

The views expressed in this post are those of Mr. Traker only. While the use of Folk Trakers is authorized for Mr. Traker he does not necessarily speak for Folk Trakers. Mrs. Traker does not purport to endorse or deny these thoughts. All rights of deniability are those of Mrs. Traker. Should she feel that her thoughts would be more appropriate, she will post at that time and the thoughts in this post will become irrelevant.
 
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EnergySaver
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-05-28
Posts: 1440
Location: Ozaukee County

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:07 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Opossum:
Others see temporaries as elitist, as only people in the WGA are able to hunt the caches. ... However, WGA events are publicly posted and open to everyone.


I'm really surprised and confused that anyone would make that comment. As you state, the whole world can see the event listings on GC. In fact our event on 4/30/05, was in my estimation, attended by people that 1/3 of them have zero involvement with WGA. I feel the whole reason we had such high attendance (about 190 people) was the fact that the regular WGA crowd came PLUS newer and semi-local geocachers that have no WGA involvement. I have regular or semi-regular contact with about 8 geocaching families that have never gone to the WGA website, but attended the event.

 
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LightningBugs Mum
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-09-26
Posts: 1604
Location: Fort Atkinson, WI

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:04 am Reply with quote Back to top

My $.02:

The WGA event temps are excellent and each one deserves a find. But they really should be at least .1 miles apart.

Now for my personal experience:

My first event was last year's picnic. When I signed up to go, I thought we would get the one event smiley and that was it. And I was expecting it to be a primarily social event. When I realized there would be lots of loggable temps, the whole situation changed. Sure, I met some great people - two of whom are still friends and caching partners today. But, except for lunch and picture time, most people (including us) were out after the caches. At the campout, the experience was pretty much the same. I'm not saying this is bad. I just don't see the WGA events as *primarily* social. If I really want to meet fellow cachers and get to know them, I have found the small events with few or no temps to be much more effective.

My second $.02:
If the WGA chooses to make their events one-log-only, then they should stop hiding the temps. We will still come, but we will see it as a social - not a caching - event. In other words, I agree with CacheCows above.

My third $.02:
The WGA should not feel pressured from outside influences. If people from other parts of the country want to gripe about these events, they should come to an event to do it. Image

------------------
Team LightningBugs
* * * * * * * * * *
 
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Cache_boppin_BunnyFuFu
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-05-06
Posts: 2008
Location: Waukesha, WI, US

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle_Fun:
1 Find=1 Log!

End of story.

Uncle_Fun



I'm with Uncle_Fun.....well not WITH him, but with the idea! Image

 
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shrek and fiona
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-12-21
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:17 am Reply with quote Back to top

why are the ansewers so long

if you find it you can log it
 
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Gram and Gramps
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-02
Posts: 344
Location: Waupaca, WI USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:54 pm Reply with quote Back to top

We like cache hunting, and introducing newcomers (especially kids) to geocaching. We watch our count, but the numbers are not the object. Some caches which are convenient or really cool we've been to several times.

But a new find is a find, regardless of where it occurs. Every temp found at an event is worthy of being included in the count, if the finder wishes.

Our $0.02 worth. Thanks for listening.

Grandma & Grandpa

 
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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:42 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by sbukosky:
Well! I'm happy to see that being in lockstep with Jeremey is being challenged by more than myself.


First of all, I like Jeremy Irish. Image I think he has the best interests of geocaching at heart.

Secondly, my stance of multiple logs of temp caches at WGA events is: Log 'em all if you want to. You earned them.

Personally, we don't log all our found temps at events. We log once per event. However, I have no problem with those who do log each find.
 
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waukesha wizards
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-02-27
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think each team should decide what is good for there team. Many teams say numbers don't matter, but for us it is everything. Having two boys (8 and 6) they like the competition, of who can we pass or where do we rank. If this works to keep them from playing video games or watching tv; we will do it.
We love events and have meet many great pepole, but the "finds" are our reason for the events. The boys say that I do to much talking and not enough finding.
So we vote keep it the way it is now. If it is not broke, why fix it. Don't fall to the pressure.
 
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Trudy and the beast
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-07-26
Posts: 2375
Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:26 am Reply with quote Back to top

I believe that the members of the board have a good feel of the wishes of the membership from the comments above. Thank you for your input. I think it may be time to close this thread. ~tb
 
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kbraband
WGA Historian



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 2461
Location: Mequon, WI US

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy & the beast:
I believe that the members of the board have a good feel of the wishes of the membership from the comments above. Thank you for your input. I think it may be time to close this thread. ~tb


Why? What's the harm in letting members voice their opinions, espcially when the discussion has been so courteous and well-reasoned?
 
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Green Bay Paddlers
WGA Member



Joined: 2003-10-12
Posts: 346
Location: Green Bay, WI

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:17 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Amy and I have attended one WGA event. It was incredibly well run and the temp cache hides were better than the majority of the "regular" ones we have found out in the wild.

Our humble opinion is that each temp cache should be worth a log (find) entry. If geocaching.com decides to eliminate that option, then so be it. It wouldn't be the first time we disagreed with "corporate headquarters." We still disagree with G.COM about their stance on virtual caches. As the woods get inundated with soaked Tupperware containers, we would love to see more "environmentally-friendly" virtual caches allowed - especially in the urban areas.

The WGA should do what they want to do. Amy and I haven't really been in this for the numbers anyway. We could care less. It's more for the hobby. However, we know folks that really get into the number of logs and want each cache to be an entry. They deserve the right to do so...

Just our two cents worth. Best to everyone!

Jeff & Amy
Green Bay Paddlers.

[This message has been edited by Green Bay Paddlers (edited 08-04-2005).]
 
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sbukosky
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-18
Posts: 644
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:32 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by kbraband:
First of all, I like Jeremy Irish. Image I think he has the best interests of geocaching at heart.


To set the record straight, I don't dislike him nor do I not appreciate what he has provided to geocaching as a whole. What I dislike is solitary control of a worldwide activity!! As a paid member of geocaching.com since it was first offered, I have no input (such as a vote)to guide geocaching or the website. Post a comment on geocaching and a dozen trolls without a life descend upon you!

Of course Jeremy has the best interests of geocaching in mind. You do. I do. Everyone with an opinion does. But that doesn't make a minority opinion the best thing to do. Too often, he that owns the gold, controls.

As a former board member, I stressed the need to allow free discussion without repercussions. This is the first time I've seen a thread challenging a ruling by Jeremy Irish. I think it is beautiful! Not everyone is in agreement but dang, it sure is nice to see the discussion!!!



------------------
Steve Bukosky
Waukesha
 
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MajorBrat
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-04-07
Posts: 303
Location: Silver Lake, WI USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:54 am Reply with quote Back to top

quote:
Originally posted by kbraband:
Why? What's the harm in letting members voice their opinions, espcially when the discussion has been so courteous and well-reasoned?


VERY GOOD QUESTION!!! I personally am proud of ALL WGA MEMBERS for posting their opinions. And one thing that we need to remember is that no matter what we as WGA members say, ultimately the decision belongs to the board as they are the "official" owners of the cache page! At least some, if not all, are listening to what those who voted them onto the board are saying. Thanks to those of you who fit that note!
 
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