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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19353
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:25 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I know some of you have put out some letterbox hybrid caches (Trekkin' & Birdin', gotta run), and the reviewers know the rules, but I can't find much on geocaching.com as to what exactly is needed to place a letterbox hybrid cache.

1. Coordinates, yes, but must these be for the final, or can they also be for a starting point and then the directions given can lead you to the cache (like a multi without further coordinates)?

2. A stamp and book in the cache container (letterbox), yes, but is there also a separate book for those who just sign, like in a regular cache?

3. Are written directions or a story needed, or can this be almost like a regular cache with a stamp in it?

4. Does the story work better on a letterboxing site instead of putting it on a geocache page and just being straightforward on the GC page?

I know all the regular placement of cache rules apply, but what's official for hybrids and what is just go with it...?
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 6078
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:00 am Reply with quote Back to top

I'm working on a new one right now, and it's a challenge one, so I asked the reviewers to be sure it would be okay, as my "steps" for finding it are more figurative. All it needs is a stamp. Period.

That said....you can put coordinates for a starting point, then give your orienteering directions to reach the final. You can craft a story, or just list it with the coordinates to the final. I just put one log book in the cache, figuring that geocachers will enjoy seeing the letterbox stamps, too. I'm getting smarter and making my own logbook with my scrapbooking supplies, so that ink doesn't bleed through to the other side of a page so easily. You don't have to list it on the letterboxing site. The one I'm getting ready will be the only one I don't list on the letterboxing site, the reasons being obvious once it's published.

I'm thrilled to see you're considering some letterbox placements. We really enjoy your caches anyway, so this would just be an extra little bit of fun! You can read the suggestions for letterbox placements on letterboxing.org, even if you don't plan to list it there.

_________________
Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:51 am Reply with quote Back to top

I was under the impression there was more required than just putting in a stamp and stamp pad....lets see what GC says:

Quote:
Letterbox Hybrid
A letterbox is another form of treasure hunting using clues instead of coordinates. In some cases, however, a letterbox has coordinates, and the owner has made it a letterbox and a geocache. To read more about letterboxing, visit the Letterboxing North America web site.


and...
Quote:

Letterbox Hybrid
Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting that uses clues to direct hunters to a hidden container. Each letterbox contains a stamp which is the signature for that box. Most letterboxers have their own personal stamps and personal logbooks. They stamp the letterbox logbook with their personal stamp, and use the stamp contained in the letterbox to "sign" their personal logbook.

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.


I have toyed with placing one of these...I got as far as writing up the page, getting a cool stamp and nice pad...then that was as far as I got......I guess I didn't like the placement and haven't found another place yet....plus I hate submitting paperwork and securing permissions.
 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 6078
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:25 am Reply with quote Back to top

Gary,

If it has a stamp and coordinates, it qualifies as a letterbox hybrid. GPSr use plus a stamp for letterboxers is the basic requirement. Most of ours have the option of looking at the letterboxing site to get the orienteering clues. It's not a requirement. In fact, they don't have to be listed at letterboxing.org at all.

So if you have a stamp ready, just go find a new place and put it out. You don't have to bother with the stamp pad. They don't hold up to our weather, anyway. Letterboxers just bring their own pads or markers in order to do the stamping. Our new one should be in the field later this morning (if I ever walk away from the computer!) and hopefully will show up in the next day or so on gc.com.

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Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:32 am Reply with quote Back to top

Trekkin' and Birdin' wrote:

.... they don't have to be listed at letterboxing.org at all.

When I looked into placing one I seem to recall being told that it needed to be listed on another site...and was asked what was the point of placing the hybrid if I didn't plan to do so....why not just make it a puzzle cache? But perhaps I’m recalling the facts of the conversation incorrectly....

In any case, I may some day put one out. As it stands right now I just packed all my Geocaching stuff up in a LARGE bin....I guess that means placing it anytime soon is unlikely.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:41 am Reply with quote Back to top

The thread above seems to be spot on. A quick summary is that:

1. You have to somehow have the GPSr be "integral" to the hunt, and that's supposed to be more than just "here's where you park," although I've seen it done that way.

2. Clues are not needed. Most of our hybrids work like a regular cache, just go to the coordinates.

3. A stamp is needed in addition to regular cache stuff. I have seen some caches include separate logs for cachers and boxers, but it seems like overkill to me.

4. No dual-listing is required.

We enjoy letterboxes but truthfully have been a bit dissapointed in the response to them on both sides of the aisle. It seems (?) geocachers avoid them becuase they are "something different." We had a new LB sit for over a week w/o a FTF while other nearby caches were found.

On the letterboxing side, there is a GREAT deal of snobbery about geocachers. I can say that here without being flamed mercilessly (I think!!!). But boxers seem to think geocachers can't find their way out of a woods without a little arrow and have a monopoly on bad eco-behavior in the woods. This seems to carry over into a general disdain for hunting hybrids.

So, to date, we have three hybrids out there that have NEVER been found by letterboxers, despite some of them being out for over half a year. Other "letterboxing.org"-only sites have been found often.

That's just an aside, but something to consider as you consider placement and/or dual publication.
 
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Lostby7
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-06-07
Posts: 3190
Location: Lake country area, WI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:53 am Reply with quote Back to top

Good comments Gotta run...
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

Not to completely hijack the thread, but I raised the question of "why don't boxers find our hybrids" on the atlasquest.com forums, to which the respondents generally sniffed, "perhaps it's because your clues are bad."

To which I replied, well, we have hybrids such as this one-- GC1FPWT --that use the same clues for both games, but only geocachers have found it. So maybe geocachers are just better at orienteering...
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19353
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:35 pm Reply with quote Back to top

No problem hijacking the thread. Not many others about letterboxing except for T&B's little stamp escapade. wink

And speaking of that, where do you get supplies to make your own stamps? Art supply stores? Is it like carving and making block prints like we did in art class many moons ago (for us)?

I think I'm kind of like LB7 about paperwork and permission--so many ideas going on, but not getting anywhere with them. Lots of details to attend to. And then there's that bit about doing stuff around the house to get ready for winter, etc. Sad

Back to letterboxing--I like the ones that tell more of a story than just directions, but that could take up as much of a page as an EarthCache! I want something more than just, "Here are the coordinates, now go find the box with the stamp in it."
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:55 am Reply with quote Back to top

Our first stamps were basically made with a pink eraser and an exacto knife and were...well, not that complicated, but no one really seems to mind.

Now we work with the regular sheets of stamping media and a carving kit. You can obviously get more complicated. But both the blocks and kits are available at most hobby-type stores. Michaels carries them if there is a store near you.

For our clue letterboxes, we usually give the letterboxing.org link in the page so that cachers can use either. Like the "salmon run" series.

Some of the other letterboxes are more like puzzles, ("Time Travels," "WSQ The Rose"), so the clues are same for both sites!
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:16 pm Reply with quote Back to top

gotta run wrote:
The thread above seems to be spot on. A quick summary is that:

1. You have to somehow have the GPSr be "integral" to the hunt, and that's supposed to be more than just "here's where you park," although I've seen it done that way.

2. Clues are not needed. Most of our hybrids work like a regular cache, just go to the coordinates.

3. A stamp is needed in addition to regular cache stuff. I have seen some caches include separate logs for cachers and boxers, but it seems like overkill to me.

4. No dual-listing is required.

We enjoy letterboxes but truthfully have been a bit dissapointed in the response to them on both sides of the aisle. It seems (?) geocachers avoid them becuase they are "something different." We had a new LB sit for over a week w/o a FTF while other nearby caches were found.

On the letterboxing side, there is a GREAT deal of snobbery about geocachers. I can say that here without being flamed mercilessly (I think!!!). But boxers seem to think geocachers can't find their way out of a woods without a little arrow and have a monopoly on bad eco-behavior in the woods. This seems to carry over into a general disdain for hunting hybrids.

So, to date, we have three hybrids out there that have NEVER been found by letterboxers, despite some of them being out for over half a year. Other "letterboxing.org"-only sites have been found often.

That's just an aside, but something to consider as you consider placement and/or dual publication.


Thanks for the great synoposis of letterbox caches.

While it is not required by gc.com, my favorite letterbox caches are the ones like DD sets up, that actually makes you follow letterboxing directions, from a fixed coordinate location.

zuma

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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Trekkin and Birdin
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-08
Posts: 6078
Location: West Salem WI

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

Ralph, We had fun with those, too. Of course, that's how the letterbox purists do all of them. It is a useful exercise to depend on your sense of direction sometimes instead of relying on the electronics and satellites.

As an aside, except for a group who found it during an event, one of our hybrids has been found ONLY by letterboxers. Many of them have never logged their find on the letterboxing site, either, but when I went to check on it a couple weeks ago, there were many stamps in the logbook. It's a Lonely Cache at the moment, but not a lonely letterbox.

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Trekkin' and Birdin'
Let's just go out and find caches and be done with it! 
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Timberline Echoes
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-07-25
Posts: 2082
Location: Eagle River, WI, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:37 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Our Letterbox Hybrid was stolen this past week... Crying or Very sad
Not sure if we will replace it.

TE
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19353
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Bummer, TE. Sad

Looks like letterboxes have some things in common with regular geocaches.
 
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HeliDood
WGA Friend



Joined: 2010-01-08
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I found this to be a useful thread.
As of yesterday I placed my first Letterbox Hybrid cache. It's awaiting publication. I believe that, when it is published, it will be the only LH in Wood County.

In response to someone's comment how the LH cache goes unfound by a lot of geocachers while other's nearby get found, I think I have a simple explanation for that. It probably starts with Pocket Queries. Most cachers filter out Mystery caches from their PQs and in the process, forget to check the LH icon.

Another explanation may have something to do with new cache notifications. I for one, don't have my alerts set up for LH's, (Only Trads, Multis and Mysteries) but thats about to change.
 
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