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JimandLinda
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-08-14
Posts: 5407
Location: Rosendale WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:21 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I was hesitant to respond to this forum, since I have followed the LCG for several monthes without getting involved. After reading the thread on "Goals", my goal for November was seeking Lonelies. It was something new and required more preplanning and time management.

The reward was seeing some very scenic areas of Wisconsin... one of the main goals of geocaching!

I was warned about a few of the "antics" of the Lonely Players and was prepared ahead of time what to watch for. The actions of a few stayed true to form.

After this 1 month of participating, I have 2 questions:

1) What is to prevent me from visiting a cache on the 19th of the month, logging it on geocaching.com website as visiting it on the 24th, and submitting my LCG report on the 31st? Who is PHYSICALLY verifying the hard copy of the cache log?

2) What is to prevent me from driving to a 5 star terrain cache, previewing the terrain, deciding NOT to go any farther, and getting 6 points by logging it as a DNF?

I realize that the LCG is a bit like golf... we call our own penalties and score our own cards. There is a limit to what the reviewer can verify, other than the report that has been submitted. I definitely appreciate the hard work and time it takes to verify the submissions, but nickel and diming a lonely cache, just to "win", will discourage more participants, not promote them.

These are only my opinions from geochatter and 1 month of the LCG. As a result of playing the game, I have really enjoyed the new cache sites that the game has brought me to!
 
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nohandsgps
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 251
Location: Menomonee Falls

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:12 pm Reply with quote Back to top

JimandLinda wrote:
I was warned about a few of the "antics" of the Lonely Players and was prepared ahead of time what to watch for. The actions of a few stayed true to form.

After this 1 month of participating, I have 2 questions:

1) What is to prevent me from visiting a cache on the 19th of the month, logging it on geocaching.com website as visiting it on the 24th, and submitting my LCG report on the 31st? Who is PHYSICALLY verifying the hard copy of the cache log?

2) What is to prevent me from driving to a 5 star terrain cache, previewing the terrain, deciding NOT to go any farther, and getting 6 points by logging it as a DNF?


Do people really do this stuff? Why (no need to answer)?
 
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lone_gunman
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-04-12
Posts: 1928
Location: The Grassy Knoll, WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:03 pm Reply with quote Back to top

That sounds a little underhanded........

_________________
There is no point in driving yourself mad trying to stop yourself going mad. You might just as well give in and save your sanity for later.

What\'s life? Life\'s easy. A quirk of matter. Nature\'s way of keeping meat fresh 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:41 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
1) What is to prevent me from visiting a cache on the 19th of the month, logging it on geocaching.com website as visiting it on the 24th, and submitting my LCG report on the 31st? Who is PHYSICALLY verifying the hard copy of the cache log?


I see nothing wrong with this item other than they logged their GC.com visit incorrectly. When you submit your report on the WGA website is of no consequence other than there are players holding off on submitting to keep it "interesting". As long as the logging is not happening across months, I dont really see an issue with the timing of logging your finds and LCG reports. I've seen last minute sneakiness all year but it appears that's part of the game.

As for physically verifying the physical logs... no one really does that now outside of the LCG.

As for the 2nd item, I add: what is to stop said person from dnf'ing more than once on said cache, getting the terrain points twice and then logging a find and getting the terrain points yet again. That is why I mentioned this already but was shot down on the idea. I think a dnf for points should only be allowed to be logged once per period. Also, they should not be able to score the dnf and find in the same month. Take the dnf and if it's still lonely next month, try to find it again.

I still think revisits are lame.
 
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zuma
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-01-30
Posts: 5559
Location: Eau Claire

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:49 pm Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
Some odd thoughts .....

1. Tell Dave he can not play any longer!

2. Give a substantial number of points for a Cache rescue.

3. But, limit a player to only 1 cache rescue per month.

4. Or, make it mandatory to find 1 cache rescue per month, to 'win'.

5. A Team can only win one month a year. Any other months they are high score, their name is thrown out.


Suggestion #2 has merit.

zuma

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All posts are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the WGA Board of Directors. 
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amita17
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-11-02
Posts: 686
Location: Menasha, WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

As a new LCG player, and not a serious one at that, prizes don't motivate me. Points don't motivate. I just tried to find the ones in my area that were lonely (not too many in the Fox Valley), and the ones that are, are too much for a newbie to get a handle on. There's a reason they are lonely. But I think it is very motivating for those who relish the challenge. No time to travel to get the distant ones. I like the idea of separating them into sections for different parts of the state. I stumbled upon the game while exploring the website as a new WGA member, much like I stumble upon caches sometimes! It is fun to see who is getting points, but I don't take it seriously.
 
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JimandLinda
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-08-14
Posts: 5407
Location: Rosendale WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

If I'm playing poker, and one of my opponents keeps an Ace up his sleeve every hand, under the guise of keeping the game "interesting", I move to a different table or play a different game!

We are looking for ways to get more cachers to participate. By playing the game according to rules that are NOT established, or by interpretting rules to fit the situation, only discourages other cachers from playing.

Keeping the integrity of the game is what will encourage others to participate!

P.S. I'm glad this discussion is occurring now and not in a bowling alley!
 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:38 pm Reply with quote Back to top

To that note perhaps if a player submits their report on the same day as a find they get a bonus? Worth a thought...
 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6092
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

-cheeto- wrote:
Quote:
1) What is to prevent me from visiting a cache on the 19th of the month, logging it on geocaching.com website as visiting it on the 24th, and submitting my LCG report on the 31st? Who is PHYSICALLY verifying the hard copy of the cache log?


I see nothing wrong with this item other than they logged their GC.com visit incorrectly. When you submit your report on the WGA website is of no consequence other than there are players holding off on submitting to keep it "interesting". As long as the logging is not happening across months, I dont really see an issue with the timing of logging your finds and LCG reports. I've seen last minute sneakiness all year but it appears that's part of the game.


from the rules:
10. Lonely cache reports must be submitted within 7 days of the find/attempt/adoption to eligible to score points. Reports submitted after this time period may be approved but will count for no (0) points.

-cheeto- wrote:


As for the 2nd item, I add: what is to stop said person from dnf'ing more than once on said cache, getting the terrain points twice and then logging a find and getting the terrain points yet again. That is why I mentioned this already but was shot down on the idea. I think a dnf for points should only be allowed to be logged once per period. Also, they should not be able to score the dnf and find in the same month. Take the dnf and if it's still lonely next month, try to find it again.



I see two ways to solve this -

1. allow one DNF and one FIND on the cache, multiple DNFs for points I agree is not right.
-OR-
2. If a cache is DNF'd and subsequently Found by the same player in the same playing period (month), deduct the points for the DNF when giving the points for the find.

-------------------------------------------------------
on another note:

The new year should make for some interesting changes in the game. Hopefully, a few more players will toss their hats into the ring. 66 players thus far in '08 is pretty good though two-thirds of them had <=10 logs.

Maybe we can set it up like Fantasy Football, where you can draft your favorite cachers to see how many points they gather each week and you score points too!!! Then in November/December there can be some playoffs to crown the winner.

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Operor vel Operor Non , Illic Est Haud Tendo

All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors

Last edited by labrat_wr on Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

labrat_wr wrote:


Maybe we can set it up like Fantasy Football, where you can draft your favorite cachers to see how many points they gather each week and you score points too!!! Then in November/December there can be some playoffs to crown the winner.


LOL!! Fantasy Geocaching Lonly Cache Game! EGADS!!!! Shocked Rolling Eyes
Don't tell mathman, but he'd lose at that too!
 
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Sagasu
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-23
Posts: 771
Location: Menasha

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:42 am Reply with quote Back to top

It's evident there is a lot of interest in the LCG from all the suggestions and comments. The game has apparently drawn some geoacachers into the WGA and stimulated considerable curiosity about caches that have become "lonely" for one reason or another. For the most part, one of the most important outcomes of the game, to verify that lonely caches are acutually there to find, seems to be happening.

The game has drawn me to more new interesting locations and caches than any other aspect of the game thus far. Some have been the most remote and scenic of any caches I have found. For this broadening of my experience I am grateful, and hope others can benefit as much by chasing these finds. In addition, I have always been curious how or why a cache has become "lonely" and most often seeking and finding them (or not) has answered that question.

While I have been one of those "crazed" individuals feeding my addiction with this special group of caches much of the past year, things have already changed, as all of our games evolve, and the time and other priorities will keep me from being as visible with the game this coming year. Like T&B, I will be seeking lonely caches as part of other caching ventures, instead of planning routes exclusively around them. Nonetheless, I will be watching the game as intently, as there are certainly some diverse styles and personalities involved as with the WGA and geocachers, in general, like in the real world.

I appreciate all that Dave/Team Deejay has done to add this dimension to our caching games, and, in reply to his request for input, offer a few thoughts in agreement with some suggested by others, and perhaps a couple new ones, including:

1. In response to Dave's disappointment that some of the "very lonely" caches still haven't gotten a look, without complicating the game too much, perhaps those should get triple points as a big incentive for those who are driven by the "bragging rights" or competition. Double points might apply well to caches that have been lonely for three seasons, or nine months.

2. I agree that the prizes are not a big deal, but some recognition, either monthly or bi-monthly would be suitable, even if it simply puts contenders in a pool for some end-of-year prize or event. Some promising ideas have been offered on this already.

3. I agree with fully incorporating the cache rescue program. It's good CITO/P.R. to do so. Ten points plus difficulty and terrain for making a trip out to do this when you don't even log a find for the effort.

4. I don't have an answer to the complexity of the scoring, and a couple of my thoughts already propose some new wrinkles, but I think the super-lonely incentive and the cache rescue points would be worth pursuing. The logistics of regional competitions seems prohibitive to add that much complexity. There have been groups of lonely caches in all the quadrants of the state at some point during the year. Mark your calendars for March or May after the northern half of the state has been idle for the winter.

5. Make maintenance part of a find and take away the separate points like T&B and seldom|seen suggest. We should do that whenever we see the need at any cache, and try to be prepared to do what it takes to keep all caches in good shape. I do regular maintenance and upgrades on all my own caches, but not all owners revisit their own caches as often. It still drives me crazy when I see a log calling for disabling a cache when a log is full.

6. Require owner permission on replacement like a couple have suggested. As the year wore on I came to recognize situations where some caches should die and open up an area for a hide that will be maintained.

7. Only one DNF should be allowed on a cache for any player. I think deducting the DNF points from that cachers subsequent find, whether in the same month, period or whatever, seems too complicated. Keep it simple. One DNF on a cache for points. One find.

8. Eliminate subsequent confirms on a cache in any period unless there has been a DNF since the last confirm. Yes, I said that. This is kind of how the rule is now, though that would extend it into subsequent periods. I think the confirm points are valuable as caches do disappear for a variety of reasons. I was surprised how many I revisited had done so though there had been no finds (or even attempts to my knowledge) for many months.

9. Trackable points. No one seems to have commented on this one. I think those should be folded into the find like maintenance points, another way to simplify the game. What trackable owner wouldn't expect you to move his or her travel bug or geocoin along if it had been sitting in any cache, especially a remote one, for four months or more?

10. Perhaps not part of the scoring, but maybe part of end-of-year recognition would be a nod to those who found the most caches that were found by nobody else during the year, or found by only one other cacher during the year on some kind of golf point system. That's real bragging rights. Not Fantasy Football either. Sorry, Pete!

Above all, have fun. Lonely caches are a special challenge, and the reward is taking the time to go out of the way for some when you can.
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:12 am Reply with quote Back to top

JimandLinda wrote:

I was warned about a few of the "antics" of the Lonely Players and was prepared ahead of time what to watch for. The actions of a few stayed true to form.

After this 1 month of participating, I have 2 questions:

1) What is to prevent me from visiting a cache on the 19th of the month, logging it on geocaching.com website as visiting it on the 24th, and submitting my LCG report on the 31st? Who is PHYSICALLY verifying the hard copy of the cache log?


Nothing prevents you from doing this but your own caching ethic. It's a bit like claiming a year long one-a-day streak with the knowledge that there were a couple instances where you fudged it. No else else might ever find out, but you have to live with the guilt that your win for the month was not bone fide. To be clear. All of the caches I logged were found specifically on those dates. Don't believe me? Go look for yourself. I also logged the caches within the specified logging timeframe and did not break any rules there. Did I intentionally hold off on logging them? You bet. Kept you guessing till the end, didn't it? So, if you consider that "antics", so be it, but don't liken it to holding an ace up my sleeve which is cheating.

JimandLinda wrote:

2) What is to prevent me from driving to a 5 star terrain cache, previewing the terrain, deciding NOT to go any farther, and getting 6 points by logging it as a DNF?


Same as above. There were some instances early on this year that called into question the validity of some DNF and Revisit logs of multiple players. To stay above the fray I decided to ignore revisits altogether for a few months and keep my DNF logs to a minimum by logging only those where I was either given permission to replace an MIA cache or spent at least a half hour looking for it, and that half hour included driving time and trail walking time. I admit that I've logged a number of DNFs this past year where I never actually made it to ground zero, but are you seriously going to begrudge me 3-4 points for 15-30 minutes of tackling often 3-4 terrains, sometimes with kids in tow (like Pretty Ones Pretty View), after a 20 minute drive to get there? I believe I have earned all the points I claimed especially when you consider that likely 80% of them were found at night between full days of other activities not caching related. We are all aware of the additional challenges night caching poses.

Even more to the point. There were 2 months this year where I intentionally orchestrated a tie. It would have been easy for me to log one or two more caches and have clear wins for 3 months, but I didn't. I logged as many as I could to try to keep up with the game leader, but not take away the hard earned wins by others. This last month was an exception where the vast number of your early "Replacements" set in motion a personal challenge to see if I could catch up to you - regardless of all those extra points. I tied a couple months specifically NOT to dissuade those players from playing the game in the future. Sure, I could have done the opposite and stayed just a point or two behind them as well, but the ties were fun to post Smile

JimandLinda wrote:

I realize that the LCG is a bit like golf... we call our own penalties and score our own cards. There is a limit to what the reviewer can verify, other than the report that has been submitted. I definitely appreciate the hard work and time it takes to verify the submissions, but nickel and diming a lonely cache, just to "win", will discourage more participants, not promote them.

These are only my opinions from geochatter and 1 month of the LCG. As a result of playing the game, I have really enjoyed the new cache sites that the game has brought me to!


I hope you don't feel like I nickle and dimmed you guys this month for the win. I was only able to score a few replacements compared to how many did you have? A dozen... You know how hard you worked to get where you did. Now image yourself doing most of those caches between the hours of midnight and 6am and you will know how hard I did.


Last edited by seldom|seen on Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:38 am Reply with quote Back to top

Sagasu wrote:
The game has drawn me to more new interesting locations and caches than any other aspect of the game thus far. Some have been the most remote and scenic of any caches I have found. For this broadening of my experience I am grateful, and hope others can benefit as much by chasing these finds. In addition, I have always been curious how or why a cache has become "lonely" and most often seeking and finding them (or not) has answered that question.


I concur. The only unfortunate thing for me was that my frequent night caching constraints didn't allow for the full appreciation of some of the remote places I was taken. On the other hand, there is something special about a deep woods at night when you hear a Great-Horned calling a few yards away. I like the night and I like caching in it.

Sagasu wrote:
1. In response to Dave's disappointment that some of the "very lonely" caches still haven't gotten a look, without complicating the game too much, perhaps those should get triple points as a big incentive for those who are driven by the "bragging rights" or competition. Double points might apply well to caches that have been lonely for three seasons, or nine months.


This might get more of us out there after the Uber-lonliess.

Sagasu wrote:
4. The logistics of regional competitions seems prohibitive to add that much complexity. There have been groups of lonely caches in all the quadrants of the state at some point during the year. Mark your calendars for March or May after the northern half of the state has been idle for the winter.


I also agree. The distribution varies so much from period to period that there should be no need to break it out regionally. Sept-Oct for example had a slew of Lonliees in the LaCrosse area and anyone in that area willing to tackle them could have cleaned house since none of the contenders from the Valley ever made if over to that part of the state. This will likely continue. The same held true for EauClare and Rhinelander areas at some point in the year.

Sagasu wrote:
6. Require owner permission on replacement like a couple have suggested. As the year wore on I came to recognize situations where some caches should die and open up an area for a hide that will be maintained.


This, again, is probably the biggest sticky point of the game. A notice should go out to lonely owners requesting permission to allow replacement. This brings it to their immediate attention that they have a Lonely cache and gives them the option to prevent replacement up front, without fielding e-mails or phone calls. If they don't respond in a week, their cache is brought to the attention of the reviewers as a potentially inactive cache and a "Do Not Replace" note is added to that cache in the list. If they do respond, a note or icon is added for "Replaceable" or "Do Not Replace".

Sagasu wrote:
9. Trackable points. No one seems to have commented on this one. I think those should be folded into the find like maintenance points, another way to simplify the game. What trackable owner wouldn't expect you to move his or her travel bug or geocoin along if it had been sitting in any cache, especially a remote one, for four months or more?


Not sure what Dave is referring to here since I have logged many TB's moved or TB's missing points this year. Can you be more specific?

It's about the final objective. Keeping all Wisconsin caches in the best shape possible for the enjoyment of all cachers. The "crazed" players have done a great deal over the course of the year to not only doctor caches in bad shape, but improve them and even replace them with better versions of their original selves. For this they should be commended, not dissed because they logged a DNF they couldn't get to or made a mistake by replacing one the was still there. I think most of us have done this on at least one occasion and that includes you too J&L (Flashlight).
 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6092
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:29 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I only moved 5 trackables through the year thus far from lonely caches but there has been one thing that I thought was a problem with points for trackables.

When a cache is lonely, the trackable is lonely too. But when the cache is found and the "lonely" trackable is moved, but replaced with another trackable, this second trackable is NOT lonely and should not be logged for points.

Many out there do feel that if you take a trackable, you should drop a trackable. The only problem I see with this idea and the lonely cache game is that a vastly remote cache has a TB or Coin recovered only to have another one be stuck there for another long period of time. So on these remote caches, I would guess that the finder would only grab the trackable and not drop another one (I wouldn't want one of my trackables stuck somewhere, I have enough of them that have been idle too long). But If the lonely happens to be in a fairly populated area where it is only lonley because it is a difficult puzzle for instance, at least it is accessible by someone to recover these lonely bugs/coins and move them on.

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All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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Sagasu
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-02-23
Posts: 771
Location: Menasha

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Just to clarify my suggestion on trackables, I agree that there is sometimes lack of clarity on the status of a trackable, like whether the trackable is really lonely if a prior player actually put it in a cache. The suggestion is to simplify the scoring and remove any incentive for taking advantage of points in those circumstances. The main thrust of the comment is that, as someone who has quite a few trackables all over the world, I like seeing them move and would be disappointed if someone finding a cache that hadn't been visited for six months left one of my bugs or coins in that cache. I remember finding one up on the Michigan border that had been there for longer than that and the owner was very happy to see it move on as he was planning a special trip to that remote cache just to rescue the bug.
 
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