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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Agreed, for the most part. I have 2 trackables that I intend to be lonely. "The Road Less Traveled" whose mission it is to visit only Lonely caches and "It Takes a Pair" whose mission it is to visit only 5/5's. I don't expect either of them to move around that much, but for those that do discover them the reward for being among the very few to do so is much greater that any reward I get from seeing them move. Dave and Pete both discovered "It Takes A Pair" at Seldom Seen's Sloppy Seconds and know from whence I speak!

It is good to move trackables along but again, so what if a player gets 2 more points for picking up a traded trackable at a lonely cache. A few points here and there do not make the difference between a first and second place finish. There's usually at least a 20 point or better difference in scores for the top finishers and I think making a big deal out of this is not worth trying to modify the rules or complicate the scoring procedure. I personally don't see anything wrong with the current scoring system for lonely trackables - 2 points to move them along is enough incentive for me to do so and to look in every cache for them. Isn't it for the rest of you guys? Has anyone passed up a trackable in a lonely cache?[/i]
 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6086
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:44 pm Reply with quote Back to top

these ideas are well taken though I have seen some ribbing about "padding" by adding baggies to caches that didn't necessarily require them. Same idea on the trackables.
10 baggies = 20 points => the potential difference between 1st and 2nd.

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All forum posts are the thoughts and opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the thoughts and opinions of the WGA Board of Directors 
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-cheeto-
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-06-12
Posts: 4538
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

dont underestimate the importance of a baggie. (even in a h20 proof matchstick container...) Many times, having the log in a small baggie is what "saves" the log when a cache is ransacked by a muggle or animal or when that precious O-ring goes.. being able to keep that original log is important to some owners. I actually see value in lonely cache hunters adding baggies to protect these lonely cache log sheets.

Now adding stubby pencils to "BYOP" micro caches seems a bit over the top to me... Smile
 
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sandlanders
WGA Member



Joined: 2008-01-18
Posts: 19346
Location: Adams, WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

When we first noticed the LCG, I took it to mean that only one cacher/team could make the find for points. After all, the cache is no longer lonely once someone has found it. We pushed ourselves to find a couple before anyone else did, and then we noticed that other caches would have several finds, and being first didn't matter in points, unless maintenance was involved.

I would read the LCG reports and find that sometimes several cachers made the find (at different times) on a cache, and if it was in the first month of the two-month cycle, more cachers would find it again the second month.

Would something like only one find for points or maybe a tiered system (10 for first find, 5 for second, 2 for third, or whatever) be too limiting on the "crazies"? Or would that send the real enthusiasts farther afield to score points, and hopefully to come up with finds and maintenance in areas where the lonlies still remain lonelies?
 
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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:28 pm Reply with quote Back to top

sandlanders wrote:
When we first noticed the LCG, I took it to mean that only one cacher/team could make the find for points. After all, the cache is no longer lonely once someone has found it. We pushed ourselves to find a couple before anyone else did, and then we noticed that other caches would have several finds, and being first didn't matter in points, unless maintenance was involved.

I would read the LCG reports and find that sometimes several cachers made the find (at different times) on a cache, and if it was in the first month of the two-month cycle, more cachers would find it again the second month.

Would something like only one find for points or maybe a tiered system (10 for first find, 5 for second, 2 for third, or whatever) be too limiting on the "crazies"? Or would that send the real enthusiasts farther afield to score points, and hopefully to come up with finds and maintenance in areas where the lonlies still remain lonelies?

I agree and thought this also.
 
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labrat_wr
WGA Vice-President
WGA Vice-President



Joined: 2007-05-19
Posts: 6086
Location: The Wildside

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:40 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The Lonely Cache Game isn't something totally new. Just new to the WGA and the great state of Wisconsin.

I am sure that some of these same issues have cropped up in the other states that have done this game.

DeeJay, do you know of how the other groups have changed the rules to streamline the game????

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Team Deejay
WGA Member



Joined: 2005-10-02
Posts: 2398
Location: Rochester, WI, US

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:07 am Reply with quote Back to top

Responding to labrat, I would say that, while we were not first, we have created the most successful LCG. Usually they go for a few months, then the people running it run out of steam.

The reason we allow multiple finds is to avoid people "racing" to be first. This is not intended to be a high stress activity, but rather a fun way to make sure the caches in our state are maintained and findable. You can be sure that I pay special attention to DNFs on these caches. If people think we would have broader participation, we could change the rule, but my guess is that the same people who do massive runs for lonely caches would be ready at the first of the month at midnight to head out and try to find everything they can that night. I suspect this would lead to less participation, not more, but I am willing to be convinced.
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

labrat_wr wrote:
these ideas are well taken though I have seen some ribbing about "padding" by adding baggies to caches that didn't necessarily require them. Same idea on the trackables.
10 baggies = 20 points => the potential difference between 1st and 2nd.


I agree with Sagasu on his former point about trackables. We should continue to incorporate their discoveries and grabs from lonely caches or report them missing. We've all seen GC's and TB's logged into caches that are no longer there and reporting them with a Verified "TB wasn't there" alerts the cache owner that they need to report it missing which in turn informs the owner that their trackable is gone.

Also agree about the baggie and the pencils points. Most of us seem to agree that we should be removing these puff points from the game and doing maintenance simply as a matter of habit.

I agree with Deejay about the lonliess being open to everyone for the same score during the 2mo period. Although there is already one exception to this rule and that is the double points for "over a year un-found" that DOES ONLY go to the first player to find it. If we build in more incentive for the really lonely ones. 6mo, 9 mo, 12mo or more un-found with 1.5, 2 and 2.5 times the regular score then they too could fall under this special point incentive.
 
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gotta run
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-11-26
Posts: 3306

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:10 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quickly stealing this thread...

The baggie discussion is interesting. How useful are they? Those little hobby ones that some folks use for micro-logs don't seem to last for more than one opening. Most baggies don't seem to serve much useful purpose after a few finds other than to tell you which piece of debris in a cache is the log book. Don't even get me started on O-rings. If they made everything as biodegradable as those, we'd have no landfill problems.

Is it worth starting a "Tips" thread on cache design? Is there one already out there?

I now return this thread to it's regularly scheduled discourse...
 
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Jeremy
WGA Member



Joined: 2002-02-19
Posts: 3251
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Don't worry about any LCG rule changes impacting the "system". Just about anything is technically possible and adjusting the scoring algorithm is a breeze.

I like the idea of awarding progressively more points for finding "lonelier" caches (multipliers of 1.25, 1.5, etc.)... something to give extra incentive to folks to attempt caches that have been not found for a long time.

While not awarding points to subsequent lonely cache finders makes some logical sense, I agree with Dave that this would make the game even more competitive and actually decrease participation. Plus you might arrive at a lonely cache just minutes after someone else and now suddenly you get 0 or reduced points... that doesn't seem fair.

As far as prizes go, the Board has discussed having the WGA supply / buy prizes for the game. Most of the discussion was centered more on participation type prizes. Like you'd get something (a pin, coin, patch, etc.) for submitting a certain number of lonely cache reports in a year. Or instead of awarding a prize to the winner each month, have a drawing where the number of drawing entries is based on the number of points earned. More people may participate if there is a chance they can get something... based on previous activity, most people know they will never win, so maybe this is why some don't even bother to play.

Since we are on these two month cycles, I also think it makes sense to have bimonthly instead of monthly winners. Or even just announce winners at the end of the year and have some bigger prizes?
 
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Sparse Grey Hackle
WGA Member



Joined: 2007-05-15
Posts: 462
Location: The Sovereign State of Winneconne

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:26 am Reply with quote Back to top

This is thread has been an excellent dialogue generator and will serve well to help remove some of the frenzied foibles to reduce to a certain extent the EOM guile and chicanery that does become somewhat of a reoccurring theme.

marc_54140 wrote:
Some odd thoughts .....

5. A Team can only win one month a year. Any other months they are high score, their name is thrown out.


This has great merit in some shape or form and would reduce many of previously discussed issues. Perhaps one and done or something like every other quarter. But not every month.

We have not participated every month in the LCG but do enjoy the challenge in the winter months particularly when the LCG would fit in with The Great Northwood’s Treasure Hunt of 2007 and 2008. That was fun being able to do some more extreme winter caching and half-stepping with snowshoes in the Timberline Echoes neck of the woods.
www.northwoodsgeocaching.com.

Most likely we may not be available to do a LCG beer frame, as we will be doing our snomocaching ala GC19YQ6 up in the Nort Woods which will once again be populated by plenty of LCG caches.

However, we still are clinging to a sliver of hope that we may finally one day get a sighting of the nocturnal Sagasu-Son on the trail.

Speakinf of trail, today is a perfect day for us to try out our new snowshoes on the WIOUWASH trail.

Sparse Grey Hackle and The Blondie Bloodhound

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cheezehead
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-07-02
Posts: 6063
Location: Hayward, WI. USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:30 pm Reply with quote Back to top

How about something like the LCG Most Wanted or Most Lonely? Take the top 5 0r 10 caches that have been the loneliest the longest and for every month they been lonely they get 10 or so bonus points.
This cache hasn't been found since Sept. of 06'
GCPVW5
Airport Flats Compass Course

I haven't had a chance to make a run at it yet. It's a multi and look like it will take some time to do.
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The new year is coming up fast. Are there going to be some rule changes based on everything covered in this thread, and if so, can we provide feedback on the proposed rule changes and modifications before they are implemented?
 
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marc_54140
WGA Member



Joined: 2004-01-28
Posts: 2631
Location: Little Chute

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:14 pm Reply with quote Back to top

seldom|seen wrote:
The new year is coming up fast. Are there going to be some rule changes based on everything covered in this thread, and if so, can we provide feedback on the proposed rule changes and modifications before they are implemented?


Now why are you so concerned over possible changes to this? You ARE on Sabbatical, correct?
 
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seldom|seen
WGA Member



Joined: 2006-12-31
Posts: 735
Location: Appleton, WI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:50 am Reply with quote Back to top

marc_54140 wrote:
seldom|seen wrote:
The new year is coming up fast. Are there going to be some rule changes based on everything covered in this thread, and if so, can we provide feedback on the proposed rule changes and modifications before they are implemented?


Now why are you so concerned over possible changes to this? You ARE on Sabbatical, correct?


Til Jan 1st! Then look out, you'll be seeing a lot more of ME!
 
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