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The question has come up several times about permission to hide caches on state land. Last year I had a discussion via email and the geocaching.com forums with officials from the Northern Kettle Moraine. For those who may not have seen it, here’s a reprint of the highlights:
Posted March 21, 2001 by kbraband: I’ve been having an email dialog with a state forest superintendent regarding permission to place caches in state parks and forests. Bottom line: they are going to discuss it to check on legal liability issues. I’ll post here what I find out. Meanwhile, let’s make sure we do all we can to ensure a good reputation for the sport, including asking permission before placing a cache, encouraging responsible use of land, and using common sense when it comes to what to place inside a cache and where to place it. Here’s some of the email:
Good morning Ken. Thanks for the email concerning your activity. I also
forwarded your email to the Supt. of the North Kettle Moraine State Forest,
Jerry Leitermann, so he would know about your activity there. I do not have
a GPS device but from the information you gave and the hints on the web
site, I was able to find the cache at Pike Lake. It took me about 1/2 hour
with out the assistance of the GPS. As I talked to other Forest Supts. about this new form of recreation, some
concerns came up about liability on our part. Most folks felt that it was a
very interesting activity but we want to check with our legal staff to see
if there needs to be a more formal process to go through when someone wants
to place some non natural item (your box) out in the forest. Most of our
activities in the forest take place on our designated trails where we
maintain and inspect the surface and can give the user some assurance that
the area is safe to use. That may be a concern for us with your activitiy.
It was quite slippery on the side of the hill the day I went to look for
your cache here at Pike Lake. We will be talking about this activity next week at a staff meeting I will
be attending with other Property Managers. I am the last person to want to
create permits and such if I don’t have to but I also know we are living in
a “sue happy society” today. I try to get back to you with some answers
soon. I left your cache where it was for now. Don’t know if you have
checked it recently but at least 3 other groups found it before I did. So
folks are out there hunting.
John E. Wald
Forest Superintendent
Kettle Moraine State Forest – Pike Lake Unit
Kettle Moraine State Forest – Loew Lake Unit
Phone # (262) 670-3403
Fax # (262) 670-3411
Email [email protected]
Posted 01 April 2001 09:10 AM by kbraband:
Here’s a follow-up email I received regarding state park officials deliberating what to do about geocaching in SE Wicsonsin.
Subj: New Prospect and Pike Lake Caches
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 3:44:42 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: “The Coblentz’s”
To:
Ken,
Both Park Superintendants are a bit concerned about geocaching in state parks and forests after receiving your e-mail notice. The South Eastern Region park managers will be discussing geocaching at their next meeting. The local warden and I (chief ranger of KMSF) were sent to hike in and find it. We needed to note the location and contents. It was a beautiful spring day and we enjoyed the hike. We hit the spot within 5 ft., but it took us about 10 minutes to figure out the hiding spot. We had so much fun in the hunt that we both felt guilty getting paid for the hour it took. We wrote in the logbook, took our picture, and left some Smokey Bear flashcards, a Smokey Bear pencil, Mauthe Lake postcard and Guide Book to WI State Parks. Our concerns were to assess the possibility of damage to the site by visitor traffic in erosion prone areas and the leaving of private property on state owned land. (Off the record, we both agreed that it shouldn’t be a problem and liked the idea of geocashing as hiking recreation.) We will share our opinions with the managers and hopfully it will put an end to their fears and concerns about volunteer trails. I did want to share some other thoughts with you and other cachers. It would be best for the cache site areas if they were moved to different locations within the area each time before a permanent volunteer trail developed. Volunteer trails do damage the land and flora. The placement of the New Prospect Cache is within the protected Haskell Noyes State Natural and Scientific Area. The Wisconsin Scientific Areas Preservation Council and the Bureau of Endangered Species have identified this area because of its pre-settlement condition, old-growth forest and it contains unique native plant and animal communties that need protection. It would help protect these plant communities if visitors were reminded to tread lightly and watch where they step while traveling in this area. These spring wildflowers are abundant and very tiny and will be blooming soon. I’m sure a decision about geocaching in WI state parks will be coming soon. My husband and I (The Mad River Paddlers) will be hiding a cache in a spectacular area west of Neillsville this spring. Be sure to watch for it! Deb
Ken, I believe it’s a non-issue in the Kettle Moraine. A cache placed in the forest will be ignored by staff unless it creates a problem or becomes a danger to the resource.
Deb
OK, Deb, thanks for the feedback. Because I did not hear back through official channels, I assumed the official position was no official position that would approve or ban geocaching in state parks and forests.
And thanks for checking on my cache at New Prospect.
~KenKen, thank you very much for posting this information. I think it should be required reading for all geocachers. Geocaching is said to be one of the fastest growing sports/hobbies worldwide and will flourish with the help/understanding of the folks who care for our state and federal lands.
I remember Yawningdog telling me he asked permission to place a cache at Mill Bluff State Park.
If I have the details right, he had to wait a few hours while they checked with the head Superintendant for the whole state.
They came back with an “okay” and he placed the cache.
That seems to be another indication that the State DNR is allowing it.
I would think that as long as we, as cachers are responsible, they will never know the activity is even going on.
quote:
Originally posted by GrouseTales:
I would think that as long as we, as cachers are responsible, they will never know the activity is even going on.I think they will ALL eventually know it’s going on as we generate more and more publicity. All they have to do is go to the state map and see there are caches in their parks. But you’re right, “responsible” is a key word. As long as we, as cachers are responsible, they may know it’s going on, but they will not prohibit it. They may even encourage it.
If there is going to be a meeting by the state concerning this, I wonder if any of us could attend. I don’t know if such meeting by DNR and similar agencies fall under the open meeting laws.
Steve Bukosky
WaukeshaI placed a cache (Wy Not Wyalusing?) in Wyalusing State Park last summer without the permission of the park superintendent (or anyone else).
The superintendent did find out about it a month later and send me an email. He was actually happy I placed the cache in the park… he went out and found it himself and had a good time. He did suggest that I ask permission in the future to make sure a cache was not placed in a ‘fragile’ area (unique plantlife, etc.). (What he said seem to mirror the official position from the DNR that the CacheCows posted.)
So it might be best to determine the place where you want put the cache first, then contact the superintendent of the park to ask permission to put the cache at that specific location.
While driving to Indiana today, watching all the multi-car pile-ups, I thought about two levels of Geocachers. Novices who can hunt public hunts and then once a certain number of caches are logged and verified, you are allowed to access a private listing of secret caches. This would be one way of carrying through “don’t ask and don’t tell”. It seems to me that once hiders are required to get permission, the fun is greatly reduced. I could live with an official map of “Geocaching allowed” areas of each state park, but having to track down a ranger really rains on the fun.
Steve Bukosky
WaukeshaAs Brian mentioned, I did get permission from the highest level before placing a cache at Mill Bluff State Park, and I’m glad that I did. They provided me with very valuable information regarding the rules prohibiting climbing on the bluffs and the reasons that the rules existed. Thanks heavens I asked, for my original plans included multiple stages that would have made my caches not only unfriendly to the local environment but, also, quite illegal!
In a similar instance, I recently traded emails with a local hunter who is a state ranger and he was kind enough to point out to me the negative impact that one of my caches (Grant’s Tomb) may be having on the landscape of the area. His input has convinced me that it would be in the best interest of the park for me to move the cache to an area of lesser impact, which I plan to do very soon. This conversation got me to thinking that, had I contacted the park officials and made my intentions known, they could have shared their expertise regarding the fragility of certain aspects of the landscape and, perhaps, influenced my cache placement.
Anyway, my point is, maybe it IS in everybody’s best interest to check with the local authorities before placing a cache?quote:
Originally posted by Yawningdog:
…had I contacted the park officials and made my intentions known, they could have shared their expertise regarding the fragility of certain aspects of the landscape and, perhaps, influenced my cache placement.Yeah, and you’d have missed out on pictures like this!
Mrs. Arffer after sneaker skiing!
Regarding Steve’s last posting;
I’ve been considering something very similar to what, I believe, he was alluding to in his message. I have, sitting next to me right now, my next cache container. It includes some moderately valuable items that fit a theme that I plan to attribute to the hunt and they may temp an unscrupulous hunter to clean out the container. In the past, I had a very unhappy experience when I placed a cache called “Collectables Cache” and one of the groups who visited it helped themselves to everything of any value in the container replaced them with things like cigarettes and condoms. These items did not fit the theme I had intended, to say the least
Anyway, this time I am considering placing the cache and then immediately archiving it and allowing the hunt by invitation only. For obvious reasons, I am struggling with the possible ramifications. Will I, and those I invite to the hunt, be seen as elitists? Am I hurting the sport by not being inclusive, even though I may put the future of the hunt itself at risk? Am I truly an insipid bozo for making caches with contents that don’t just come out of my kitchen junk drawer?What do you guys think?
Unfortunately in todays litigation happy society, the “officials” a lot of times give you a NO answer (in general).
“Dad can I go to John’s house? NO! How come? BECAUSE I SAID SO!
Asking first may indeed be the “right” thing to do, but I don’t buy a lot of the denials I have read about.
Volunteer trail- minor compared to critter trails. I have seen bunnies make bigger trails than any geocach I ever visited.
Flora- We have 1.8 million deer in the state munching on these tasty flowers.
Liability- If any chunk of land is open to hunting, it should be open to geocaching. Why would I sue the state if I tripped over some tree root in the middle of the forest? Unless offtrail hiking is totally banned from a property, then geocaching should be allowed.
Geocaching has been peacefully existing with nature for over a year now.
Since I am part owner of these lands (as we all are), I don’t feel compelled to ask permission to tread there.
I still like the “Dont ask, Dont tell, Dont damage” idea.
I think if more people ask permission for this, the State is going to think the woods will be a garbage dump.
It would be nice to have a widely published “Okay” from the state, but I would hate to have them put the official kabash on geocaching too.
I’ve worked at law enforcement agencies for over 15 years and have a pretty good idea how the official thought process works.
quote:
Originally posted by Yawningdog:
Anyway, this time I am considering placing the cache and then immediately archiving it and allowing the hunt by invitation only. For obvious reasons, I am struggling with the possible ramifications. Will I, and those I invite to the hunt, be seen as elitists? Am I hurting the sport by not being inclusive, even though I may put the future of the hunt itself at risk? Am I truly an insipid bozo for making caches with contents that don’t just come out of my kitchen junk drawer?What do you guys think?
YD, I feel your pain. I have sometimes thought of putting a “valuable” cache with really cool stuff in it, but then I keep thinking about what happened to your Collectibles Cache. More often my usual thought pattern when I’m thinking to myself is “Ken, don’t put it out there unless you can put up with someone stealing it, because that’s the risk you take for leaving a box in the woods.” Still, it would be nice to generate excitement by putting something way cool in a cache. I’m kicking around some ideas on how to do that so that only bonfide cache hunters will be able to “cache in”.
I think your questions are logical. This sport has only been around since may of 2000. The decisions people like us make at this point in time will have a direct impact on where the sport goes and how it evolves. I don’t like asking permission to put a cache on state land; however I can see the benefits of having the understanding and cooperation of the dnr on our side. We’ve considered adopting a trail in the southern kettle moraine, we care for the trails already by carrying out trash. We may even sponsor a geocache training day for a scout troop. I do this because I enjoy being able to find my way around in the woods without help; I love hiking and I enjoy the companionship of my friends. Like the chinese proverb ” the journey is much more important than the destination”. So I guess I would be against a secret cache list at this time. If I lose a cache or two to a hunter or whoever, then I just put another one out. Speaking of that, does anyone know where we can pick up ammo boxes cheap? Thanks for listening to our viewpoint.
YD,
I posted a couple of possible ideas to your question on protecting your new cache over on the Help forum. I thought more ideas might be presented over in its own thread, so it doesn’t get buried here. Hope you don’t mind
I’m reviving this thread because I received an email from a friend of ours in Cleveland about a permit system the Cleveland Metroparks have put in place for goecaching. It looks like they have a geocaching champion within their parks department who understands the benefits of geocaching for all — including those who run the parks. It would be great to see if we could get this kind of official cooperation going with park officials in Wisconsin, including the DNR and county parks officials. YOu can read more about the Cleveland story at this link: http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=7280934054
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