ALR Caches Are No Longer Allowed

[seldom|seen]

Well, this might be the straw that broke this camel’s back. Let’s take every opportunity to grow the value of the sport and distill it down to finding tupperware in the woods. How mundane.

I just don’t get why the push is always in the other direction. Every cache I make has some other purpose behind it save a handful of exceptional locations. What would Consult the Oracle, arguably one of the most visited ALR caches in the Valley, be without the ALR? Cult of Personality, I’ll Come Bouncing Back, etc…

What’s next, remove all the requirements to solve puzzles and make them optional too? I just went through mine and was relieved to see that it only affects about a dozen of mine. Whew… I thought that number was going to be much higher. I have no intention of archiving them and I guess I will have to add a boilerplate now.

Why is it that EVERYONE must be able to find EVERY cache? Who cares if some cache owners go too far? Don’t do their caches. It seems SOOOO simple to me. Christ, I just spent a week setting up a new series of ALR’s. Glad that last one made it under the radar yesterday or I wouldn’t be smiling.

Gonna have to sit back and see what happens.

[sandlanders]

We have just started working on Marc’s 900 series and will continue to look for and photograph the unique and unusual elements in cemeteries for these caches. We have always tried to do caches in the spirit the cache owner intended, including taking listed routes in, mentioning something in our logs, finding other waypoints identified but not necessarily part of the cache, etc. That’s what is so fun about geocaching.

[RSplash40]

remember, the points here are from the vantage of a person who primarily goes for numbers and good views.

For once, I’m actually in agreement with a change.

There are a number of ALR’s that have neat and sometimes significant things to do that relate to the cache subject, but frankly, the majority don’t. The extra to-do’s are just time and bit wasters.

Thinking back maybe 10% of those ALR’s I’ve done (not including virts) actually got checked. Granted, my number could be skewed but most say “I will contact you either way”, and I’m referring to those I actually received a message from the cache owner.

I would bet a good portion of owners might check them for the first few finders but then get busy and don’t. . So then..whats the point? Those against it on this posting I believe are in the minority.

In this case, the change will open up more caches for me to do as I typically let those with extra requirements go until they are the very last in the area(same with multi’s and puzzles that take more than 15 mins to solve).

I’m not saying I applaud the change as some people really like that type of cache, but it is in the positive for me.

[greyhounder]

Want my reviewer opinion? Well, as a reviewer, I just have to go along with the decision.

As a geocacher, I’m sort of sad to see the end of ALRs. Some of them were really great and a fun challenge.

Bec

[seldom|seen]

@RSplash40 wrote:

The extra to-do’s are just time and bit wasters.

I would bet a good portion of owners might check them for the first few finders but then get busy and don’t. So then..whats the point? Those against it on this posting I believe are in the minority.

I agree that I might be in the minority, this is true. But there is a point for every one of mine that certainly goes above and beyond “take a picture with the camera provided” or “post a picture of you and your GPS in front of….”.

Letsee…

Laughing Waters | We Come From the Water: Add a water sample from your home town to the Global collection of water samples in the International Fountain of Menasha,

Native & Invasive | Alien invasion: Post a picture and report the location of an invasive plant species outbreak in Wisconsin to the Google Map for the DNR to reference,

Consult the Oracle: Draw your own version of the Oracle so your art can be posted to the cache listing,

Fox Locks |#3 Treasured Memories: Add a memory of a life experience on the Fox River or other water body,

See Through Characters: Take a picture of some creative graffiti and post it with your log,

It’s Your Call*: Record a most memorable moment to be added to the audio archive on the liked cache page in the listing,

Unless you are really into this sport for the posturing of find counts and bragging rights, I would expect that most of you can see the value to these ALR’s and how they are more that just a throw-away or waste of time.

Quite the contrary. For me, these give all the wasted time (going into the woods to sign pieces of paper) that we put into this sport an occasional reason to do so and actually makes it all worth the effort on the occasion that you not only get to log a find, but moreover get to leave a little piece of you behind for others to discover. And THAT my friends is the only REAL reason to do this thing we call geocaching. After all, if you hoot for a cache you find in the woods and no one else hears you, have you found it?

[zuma]

@seldom|seen wrote:

Well, this might be the straw that broke this camel’s back. Let’s take every opportunity to grow the value of the sport and distill it down to finding tupperware in the woods. How mundane.

Mundane? Personally, I quite like finding tupperware in the woods, though I admit a fondness for a long walk in the woods leading to a big ammo box under a stick pile. That may be mundane to some, but it is not to me.

As Mick Jagger may have said, “It’s only geo cach ing, but I like it.”

zuma

[labrat_wr]

By making the ALRs optional will certainly dilute the experience of some caches out there but I also have a feeling that a lot of geocachers out there will take on that optional challenge and thus gain the full value of these caches. Those that choose not to, may get the smiley and add to their totals but the caches that hold some significance with the ALRs….. their loss I guess. Agreed that some of the ALRs are frivolous and really have little to do with the challenge of the cache, but as stated in this and I am sure, many threads around the world, there are those ALRs that will interest the cachers and they will continue to perform them if the cacher deems them reasonable.

Disclaimer : Always answering to a higher power.

[gotta run]

To some geocachers, “it’s all about the numbers.” Seeing that little ticker go up is what really gets their ticker going and they’ll spend their time doing their best NASCAR impression rather than puzzling over puzzles or struggling with ALRs.

Other cachers are those who are motivated by trying to find “something different.” They’ll spend their evenings working through puzzles rather than sorting through a best-line-of-travel PQ, and they’ll pass up a park-n-ride on the way to a lonely cache.

What groundspeak seems to be saying is “we prefer quantity over quality.” You want 1,000 smash and grab micros .1 mile apart? Great! You wanna require people to take some extra time at a cache? Nope.

Well, it’s groundspeak’s sandbox, so you gotta play by their rules.

But having just come back from doing a number of really creative letterboxes today, including one that was inside a library (it’s a hollowed out reference book), it’s just too bad that groundspeak has to keep working to dumb the game down to the lowest common denominator.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[RSplash40]

@seldom|seen wrote:

there is a point for every one of mine that certainly goes above and beyond “take a picture with the camera provided” or “post a picture of you and your GPS in front of….”.

Thats exactly what I was pointing out when I said “There are a number of ALR’s that have neat and sometimes significant things to do that relate to the cache subject” I have done many that I truly enjoyed the challenge or change in scenery, when the bug bites I’ll do them and 99% of the time my logs reflect the effort put into them. But I’ve got good bug repellent, and my preferences lie elsewhere.

I was not in any way trying to single anyone out, my interpretation of previous responses was that there were more than you who felt the same way. However, my original post is still the basis of how I feel about ALR’s.

@seldom|seen wrote:

Unless you are really into this sport for the posturing of find counts and bragging rights, I would expect that most of you can see the value to these ALR’s and how they are more that just a throw-away or waste of time.

Posturing? For a while, maybe, but if that were really the case, many who started after me and are now well beyond my windshield would only be a speck in the rear view mirror.

@seldom|seen wrote:

Quite the contrary. For me, these give all the wasted time (going into the woods to sign pieces of paper) that we put into this sport an occasional reason to do so and actually makes it all worth the effort on the occasion that you not only get to log a find, but moreover get to leave a little piece of you behind for others to discover. And THAT my friends is the only REAL reason to do this thing we call geocaching.

Like you typed, “for me”, each has their real reason to do this, I put a day laughing with the NEWPG crew going for numbers or a 3 mile hike in the Timberline to some of the best views Wisconsin has to offer ahead of any other type of hide.

@seldom|seen wrote:

After all, if you hoot for a cache you find in the woods and no one else hears you, have you found it?

Does it really matter to anyone but you? No. There is no boss signing caching paychecks, there is no trophy to win, there is no bottom line and there are only a really loose set of rules. It’s just you and how you get your satisfaction from caching. So my answer: Yes.

[jenhen1]

A very interesting and thought provoking change.

I see it as, once the cache has been found the geocaching ends. Everything beyond that is non-geocachng related. The ALR may be worthwhile, many things are, but where does it end? You could conceivably be asked to do 100 hours of community service and prove it in your log, write a letter to your congressman or raise money for the Girl Scouts. It’s all “worthwhile” but it has nothing to do with finding the container, although there are many AWESOME ALR’s out there.

Any challenge, puzzle, requirement or whatever it takes to actually locate the cache is fair game. If you can incorporate doing 100 hours of community service into actually finding the container, then it should be fair game. Doing it afterwards is worthwhile, but in my opinion, not geocaching related and shouldn’t be required. I like the optional part and think many of us would do them anyway.

I applaud Groundspeak for continuing to clarify just exactly what the definition of geocaching is.

[Team Deejay]

I do apologize for not posting to this thread earlier. I have been busy hosting an major event (not geocaching related) and didn’t see the change was made official until now. Most of the factual posts to this thread are indeed correct. Here are the highlights:

1. All existing ALRs will need to be converted to optional additional tasks. The cache owner can ask finders to perform these tasks voluntarily, but not delete their logs if they don’t. You are allowed to suggest that those not performing the tasks that are lowdown no-good offspring of farm animals, but you cannot delete their online logs if they signed the logbook in the cache.

2. All of the current challenge caches published in Wisconsin are fine as is, including the “How Hungry” challenge and Marc’s WSQ 000 cache. To be an acceptable challenge, the challenge must be geocaching related, reasonable, and performable before finding the cache. Note that taking photographs is not considered geocaching related, but waymarking type challenges would be allowed.

The following is a list of all the challenge caches in Wisconsin that I am aware of. None of these require any modification:

GC14B96 BBIINNGGOO!!
GC15JH6 Crazy Retro Driver’s Wanted!
GC15WT3 Badger State Challenge – 72 Counties
GC17Y36 Northwestern 12 Pack Challenge
GC1A1Q8 EarthCache Tic-Tac-Toe
GC1AQ1P T & B’s “How Hungry Are You?” Challenge
GC1DCTE Laughing Waters | You’re Outta Here
GC1HMCJ WSQ – Shawano County Cemetery (SCC) Challenge
GC1JMFG DeLorme Challenge: Unique Natural Features, A.S.
GC1NZNF Wisconsin Alphabet of Places Challenge
GC1P3CQ WSQ 998 Alphabet of Cemeteries Challenge
GC1P8AF WSQ 000 The quest ….
GCXPZR Wisconsin DeLorme Challenge

If you think your cache qualifies as a challenge and I missed it, just drop me a note.

3. This change does not affect to those caches which require you to find a bunch of caches, where information for a final cache is contained in each of (or some of) the caches. These caches are all fine and require no changes. It also does not affect to any sort of puzzle cache, including monkey puzzles, lockboxes, and other physical puzzles. Those are all fine. Of course, if you have an ALR along with the regular puzzle, that will still need to change.

4. This change does not apply to earthcaches, grandfathered virtuals or grandfathered webcam caches.

5. My understanding is that you MAY choose to change your cache type from mystery to traditional (or multi), but that this change is not required. If you desire to change the cache type of your ALR cache, please drop me a note and I will change it for you. I’m sure those who didn’t like the reduced traffic caused by the mystery designation will appreciate the opportunity to change their cache type.

In closing, as Bec said, our opinion on this change really isn’t important. We are just charged to enforce the guidelines as instructed by Groundspeak. If you have any other questions not answered by this post, just drop me a note.

Dave

[gotta run]

3. This change does not affect to those caches which require you to find a bunch of caches, where information for a final cache is contained in each of (or some of) the caches.

Deejay, I’m assuming that the second part of this sentence is not critical, just the first part, correct?

In other words, challenge caches where you have to find a bunch of other caches first (Like Marc’s WSQ 000) are ok.

I ask because we’ve “converted” all our 6-packs to “challenge” caches for ease of maintenance (by both us and finders).

On the Left Side of the Road...

[-cheeto-]

Thanks for the posting and clarifications for everyone Dave!

As for Alex’s points, I think everyone will still enjoy choosing the right water to pour into the fountain in menasha (which I still look forward to doing), they will still enjoy dropping bouncy balls off a bridge (and hopefully not losing them all like we did!), and look for the invasive “alien” species, and draw their rendition of the Oracle (mine was made of cheetos), and photograph cool grafitti, and record their memorable moment on the phone call (which I have yet to do).

I say, continue to put out new caches that would have had ALR’s and just make them interesting suggestions. One of the points made on the huge thread on geocaching.com is that the requirement should be interesting, fun, and so worthwhile that the cacher feels like they WANT to participate. I think yours do that s|s. No need to switch gears on what you are doing over this. Your intentions are much better than the few that ruined it for all.

[Trekkin and Birdin]

I am curious to know about the kind of ALRs that put this action into motion. I will say we’ve seen a few that made us say “eh” but we followed through. However, the vast majority of those we’ve done in Wisconsin have been just as cheeto said, interesting enough or related enough to the cache find itself to make them worth our time.

Like most who’ve commented on this thread, we will continue our practice of trying to honor the placers’ intent. If that means an ALR, we’ll do it. Long hike, puzzle solve, whatever. We’ll do the work. We enjoy those challenges.

I’m with zuma, though. Yesterday we went to Rochester Minnesota and did our fair share of quick finds, many of which were simply finds. Our favorites of the day were the long hikes in the woods in a county park nearby. Flushing a woodcock near ground zero, seeing my FOY Eastern Wood Pewee, enjoying the solitude of nature…..those are the caching experiences I savor. Nothing mundane there, more like sublime.

Well, there was the matter of that tiny cache 25 feet up a tree in a park. That was fun, too. My grandchildren are just not getting a grandma who sits around in a rocking chair, LOL.

[gotta run]

@Team Deejay wrote:

The following is a list of all the challenge caches in Wisconsin that I am aware of. None of these require any modification:

GC15JH6 Crazy Retro Driver’s Wanted!
GC1P8AF WSQ 000 The quest ….

Now see, even here this gets fuzzy. The “challenge” part of “Crazy Retro” is to find the puzzle caches. But the cache requires the log be formatted in a particular way. Is that an ALR?

Same goes for WSQ 000. Not only do you have to find 66 caches, but you gotta post in your log when you found them all.

Obviously common sense and courtesy will come into play here–most cachers who put forth the time and effort to complete a challenge will also do the log.

Just seems like gc really threw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater on this one…or took this idea out of the oven a bit too soon..or a few other cliche’s I can’t think of at the moment.

Oh well, it’s all a moot point now anyway! I got some guard rail caches to go find…

On the Left Side of the Road...

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