Challenges

[Team Black-Cat]

@Team Honeybunnies wrote:

They will only be as good as the imaginations of the placers and finders.

Unfortunatly, the Principle of Least Effort will be in full force since that seems to be the path that Groundspeak paved for challenges.

[CodeJunkie]

I think they missed the boat in a few areas with challenges.

1) There’s no pre-review by anyone. This means anyone can throw whatever crap out there that they want and it’s fair game for all until it gets enough negative votes to shut it down. Imagine if they extended this form of “peer review” to all cache types.
2) There’s nothing I can do as the challenge owner to require some “knowledge” was gained as in earthcaches & virtuals. It’s completely the honor system and aside from a photo that’s not much option for cacher proof. In the virtuals / earthcaches there’s generally some kind of additional “proof” required. Granted it can be fudged, but it encourages compliance.
3) No “Delete Log” functionality. If someone logs it as complete the best I can do is flag their log and hope for the best. Imagine if we eliminated the “sign” requirement for all standard cache types (granted it’s the owner’s option to validate if they choose, but at least there’s an option to delete logs)
4) Photo Challenges are no different than Waymarking. Go to a spot and take a photo of something. Unless I’m missing it this is exactly what waymarking is.
5) Action Challenges provide zero means for verification. Go to a spot and do something pointless where someone may or may not see you do whatever it is you’re supposed to do.

Peer review can be good, but it can also be akin to letting the inmates run the asylum. I can certainly see good challenges created, but what’s the point of creating one if everyone can armchair log it and make it completely meaningless.

[CodeJunkie]

@Team Honeybunnies wrote:

They will only be as good as the imaginations of the placers and finders. If we want it to be “Order a Big Mac at the McDonalds at 4th and Main in Waco, TX” it can be, or it can be “Greet the sunrise at Otter Cliffs, Acadia NP”.

Here lies the heart of the problem. Your McDonalds example is a specifc location, but commercial so it wouldn’t fly. Your sunrise exxample isn’t a specific location, so it won’t fly. But if you say “Goto 4th and Main and take a picture of the sunrise” you’ll probably be OK.

I’m also not sure what “finders” has to do with it. Once placed they remain until enough negative peer pressure exists to get them archived. This can be from finders or non-finders.

And no, I’m not calling anyone out. I’m just stating that in the current context it’s so vague with no guidance from the mothership that it’s really is a “wild west” scenario. Personally I like the watch the sunrise challenge, but how do you enforce it?

[Team Honeybunnies]

@Team Black-Cat wrote:

@Team Honeybunnies wrote:

They will only be as good as the imaginations of the placers and finders.

Unfortunatly, the Principle of Least Effort will be in full force since that seems to be the path that Groundspeak paved for challenges.

“You may say that I’m a dreamer, well I’m not the only one…”

[Team Black-Cat]

🙂
Ever the optimist.

[CodeJunkie]

I was listening to the Podcacher Podcast from last Wednesday (8/17) and it has an interview with Jeremy & Brian. Very interesting perspective on where they’re expecting this to go.

[Lostby7]

@CodeJunkie wrote:

I was listening to the Podcacher Podcast from last Wednesday (8/17) and it has an interview with Jeremy & Brian. Very interesting perspective on where they’re expecting this to go.

Care to fill us in on the bullet points?

[CodeJunkie]

@Lostby7 wrote:

@CodeJunkie wrote:

I was listening to the Podcacher Podcast from last Wednesday (8/17) and it has an interview with Jeremy & Brian. Very interesting perspective on where they’re expecting this to go.

Care to fill us in on the bullet points?

I was thinking of that exact thing as I was driving in today while listening but didn’t think taking notes was a good idea while driving. I am planning to listen to it again though, because “geocaching.com” as we know it is headed in a very different direction than where it is today. I’ll take notes on the second listen and post them here.

I also can’t get to the website from here (big brother software in place), so I can’t post the link.

[Lostby7]

I think this is it from the 16th.
http://www.podcacher.com/?powerpress_pinw=2262-podcast

[Cheesehead Dave]

@CodeJunkie wrote:

I was listening to the Podcacher Podcast from last Wednesday (8/17) and it has an interview with Jeremy & Brian. Very interesting perspective on where they’re expecting this to go.

And there’s another problem: They explained it very well on the podcast, so if you happened to hear it, you knew what the goals of the new game were. Unfortunately it wasn’t nearly as clear on the site.

I wonder how different the reaction would have been if they had held off on introducing the Worldwide Challenges for a few weeks? I think “Kiss a frog” really set a bad example and all the non-location-specific Challenges were created based on that.

[redhead3434]

They should have started by posting some decent challenges, then I’m sure they wouldn’t have half the problem that they do now.

[gotta run]

Because I’m too lazy to listen to the podcast, what are the “goals of the new game” of geocaching?

On the Left Side of the Road...

[-cheeto-]

@-cheeto- wrote:

I would encourage others to “vote down” any challenges you see pop up near you that are not “location-based”. Even saying “in such and such a city” is not at specific coordinates. If this is to look or work even remotely close to the virtuals of the past, these need to be things to find at locations.

Actually, what’s recommended in the Groundspeak forums is to flag them as unplayable. This gets the attention of someone I guess.

[hack1of2]

We just got back last night from attending the Groundspeak block party in Seattle, where they unveiled the first 5 official challenges for those that attended. I figured that there would be a topic on this at the WGA forum and was looking forward to reading up on it when we returned. But holy cow 12 pages worth and counting…

I (John) like them. Kim liked the local Groundspeak block party challenges but overall isn’t as big on the challenges as I am. The main thing I like about them is this: they are a new game to play that is (presumably) GPS-based. No, it’s not geocaching. They don’t claim it is so calm down. I think many are upset because they think it waters down the game/sport of geocaching. I don’t think of it that way. I see it as an entirely different game, one that is loosely location-based using a GPS. I would dislike it if the challenges were counted toward our geocaching find total, but they don’t. They’re listed separately. Participation is optional. They just happen to be conveniently totaled on one’s geocaching profile for a handy reference. For those of you who want virtuals? Go for it, but they’re not counting toward your geocaching numbers. I think that’s brilliant! Let me sort of repeat myself. I feel somewhat protective of this game/sport, and am opposed to caches that could potentially cast geocaching into a negative light with the public, with local government, with neighborhoods, law enforcement, the DNR, etc. And because of that I would NOT like it if these somewhat-unmoderated “challenges” were considered virtual geocaches that counted toward our totals. But again, they don’t. And they won’t show up in searches for caches (thankfully) unless you click on “Search for challenges around this location.” Because . . . (pause for effect) they are keeping them separate.

Another thought. For those who have found pretty much all of the caches in their area, this gives them another game to play; different than geocaching yet similar enough to perhaps make it fun for you. I think it enhances the GPS game genre. The fact that it’s linked on the geocaching web pages is convenient; I’ve never even visited the whereigo or waymarking web pages, assuming there is a page for those games. But this game is getting visibility!

At the Groundspeak Block Party this past weekend, they presented five official event challenges for those that attended. One was to complete a scooter obstacle course, another was to fill a bottle of vodka with water and cork it so it wouldn’t leak (with an optional tour of the distillery), another was visit a site along the river where houseboats were plentiful and unscramble a riddle, another was to break open cocoa beans by hand (with an optional tour of the cocoa bean chocolate bean facility), and another was to visit a historical museum and answer some easy historical questions about the Fremont area of Seattle. For each challenge completed you received one-fifth of an interlocking pathtag, and upon completion of all you received a trackable block party geotag.

Some challenges are in the spirit of well-done virtuals of old, and some are just plain goofy. Just like in geocaching (remember, geocaching is a different game), there’s something for everyone. So bring on the new “virtuals,” vote thumbs down or flag the ones that are lame, as I already have done numerous times, and I’m sure the rules, procedures, requirements, and expectations will get refined over time. 8)

[GetMeOutdoors]

Here’s the notes I took.

complications they had with Virtuals: – how to know whether or not the place was unique or interesting – started declining in quality – bad ideas were being submitted, but disagreed on criteria/method to “approve” the submitted ideas. Could not draw the line on where to say yes and where to say no so they decided just not to do it.

Decided virtuals could not be filtered by “quality assurance” so they were ceased. But the users cried for them to come back

Challenges were developed under the idea that victuals were intended to recreate an experience that the “hider” was able to appreciate and wanted to share with others. So “Challenges”, in turn, were meant to provide a way for a cacher to share a location based experience that they had. Examples cited are the famous grassy knoll. Where you stand at the site of a piece of history – in the place where you’ve seen all the footage.

Since the reviewers could not figure out how to evaluate virtuals, they decided to let the user community “evaluate” or rate the challenges.

Photo challenge example – pulling the finger of the Lennon statue. For some reason Jeremy is terribly amused by this one. Jeremy goes on to say that a challenge can be a “fun and possibly embarrassing action that you can commit on your friends”

Several other examples that diverge significantly from geocaching as you know it (Location based – GPS needed) Though they keep saying “location based” it’s more of an abstract location than a specific coordinate.

Challenges are equated with physical caches in the sense that you can go to a place and look at geocaching.com to find out “what fun things can I do here” They want to “Turn every location into an adventure”(Jeremy) which may consist of finding a geocache or licking the face of a diseased gerbil, or whatever thing a cacher has imagined. Examples given are things to do at Disney world or exploring a national park where physical caches are not allowed. yet they don’t want it to be a marketing platform.

They particularly point out that Challenges are NOT caches – in fact Jeremy keeps correcting himself when he almost says “cache” in the place of “Challenge”

Admit that it’s sort of an experiment to see how the caching community responds.

Thumbs up and thumbs down placed for user feedback to indicate to other users if it will be any good or not. But not meant for approval/archival purposes. They talk about reporting methods (flagging) for users to communicate bad challenges but no specifics given.

Challenges NOT owned by anyone – can’t delete logs, it belongs to the community. No control or say over results.

Confirms that the find count includes challenges but is broken out in some areas, including the profile and the hover. This was supposed to accommodate those who did AND did not want them applied to their count. Thought that the compromise would please everyone.

Global challenges – worldwide challenges: locationless caches. – just a fun thing to do in any neighborhood. Intended to be just another way to have fun. Intended to spur creativity and celebrate the most creative participants. Only groundspeak can create these. Didn’t want it to be a “Free for all”

Only premium members can create challenges and only once every 24 hours.

Also says – just because you CAN place a cache somewhere doesn’t mean you SHOULD and the same principle applies to challenges – want people to create quality caches. So in other words they are relying on people to police themselves.

Won’t be included in pocket queries / won’t have GPX files. Intended to be used on mobile devides with data plans / wifi.

Existing virtual caches will remain in effect, not converted. but free to be duplicated.

There’s no guidelines but there is “encouraging text” that give some direction to challenges. Example given – the Delorme / county challenges. But then they say that this would fit better in an “achievement system”

That’s the big stuff.

PS – CAN NOT believe they equate doing these things to being a super hero!!! Also can no longer listen to the sound of Jeremy’s voice. And Mr. interviewer, you can stop brown-nosing with Jeremy & Brian. Gag me.

SUMMARY: the “future” of geocaching is so go to a place and have fun. That fun may be finding a container or doing any other random deed that came from another “cacher’s” imagination and is subject only to the quality of what they come up with – good or bad.

Gotta Run – stop being so lazy. yeesh!

[Author]

Posts