Discussion of not logging temps, starting with this event

[zuma]

@-cheeto- wrote:

this issue does not interfere with my family’s plans to attend the event. there is one thing that may prevent the trip but it’s not this issue.

I like that the group is finally taking a stance on the issue. Whether the entire group population agrees or not, at least it’s a stance and it’s a big plus that it’s based on the “popular vote” of that population.

Hey Cheeto,

I really hope ya make it down there. I was down at Governor Dodge today putting out temps, and I can tell ya that Gov Dodge State Park is a wonderful place, and we will have a lot of great folks there: members of the WGA.

I really look forward to meeting you in person, as I appreciate all of your great contributions here in the forums and your fun caches (except the goose poop one). 🙂

zuma

[gotta run]

While I am disappointed w/the decision, I will defend the BOD’s process here. They took a vote, an overwhelming number of respondents voted one way, and proponents of multi logging (including me) lost. It wasn’t voted on in secret. People have to take the time to stay informed or not complain about the outcome. Time to move forward.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Ry and Ny]

I got an email. Doesn’t everyone get the newsletter emails? If I recall correctly, the referendum was at the very top of the list of items on the newsletter.

FYI, if not everyone gets an email, I would move that this be included in the prerequisites for joining WGA. No handing out the email address to 3rd parties, but you agree to get referendum notifications as a condition of joining. So far in the last couple months, I’ve gotten exactly one email from WGA, so I don’t think that’s burdensome.

Just as the Board gets called to task for putting in the effort to act in a timely manner, I think it’s incumbent on the membership to take the responsibility for helping shape the direction and vision of the organization.

All of this being said, in most governmental elections (where the stakes are much higher by the way), not including presidential elections, 15% is not unusually low for voter turnout. I don’t see where saying that only 15% of people voted is a real argument to invalidate the results. Heck, your average Gallup poll is lucky to catch 1 in 10,000 people it’s targeted at.

[zuma]

@Bushwhacking Queen wrote:

@QwertyToo wrote:

I’ve been trying to stay quiet on this topic, but I just have to say that a majority of WGA members did not vote to no longer log temporary caches.
The majority of members, a whopping 85%, didn’t vote on the issue at all. Which means the action taken by the board was based on the opinion of just under 10% of the active members.

Please don’t say that a majority of members voted for something when that is clearly not the case.

End of Rant

GERAT POINT!

I am an infrequent visitor to the website…I don’t normally visit the forums, rarely read the home page, and only if I hit Referendums by accident instead of recent logs do I go there…and every time I have done that by accident it says no referendums at the time. SO, as for the Referendum, I DID NOT VOTE as I did not see it out there. I think the board is wrong if they believe this decision is what a majority of the members want as stated above. What I believe it communicates is that the board is reacting to the people that focus on forums and what others are doing rather than going out and doing themselves.

Hi BQ,

Thanks for sharing your views, and I appreciate you taking the time to share your views here. The BOD acted upon the feedback we were getting from our members, and many people shared their views prior to the decision, and helped us shaped the new policy. We also felt that there was a need to take action because the past policy was damaging to the reputation of the WGA, both within the state and with the general geocaching community at large.

As far as going out and doing it ourselves, 6 of the 9 current BOD members and one former BOD member were at Governor Dodge this weekend preparing for the campout, putting out over 50 temps, and doing our best to make the event a success and fun for everyone. Personally, I had a great walk in Governor Dodge today, and the only smiley that I got out of it was the one on my face, enjoying exploring an amazing place.

I am sorry that you did not get to vote. We did send an email out to all WGA members, in addition to soliciting input here in the forums. If you are one of the few who did not get the email, you might want to check if your spam filter nabbed it. There may be other issues that we vote on in the future, and you will want to get future emails, so check your spam filter. If that doesnt fix the problem, send a note to Jeremy and he can likely help you troubleshoot why you might have missed the notification. We do want input from all members, and we value your views.

zuma

[zuma]

@Ry and Ny wrote:

I got an email. Doesn’t everyone get the newsletter emails? If I recall correctly, the referendum was at the very top of the list of items on the newsletter.

FYI, if not everyone gets an email, I would move that this be included in the prerequisites for joining WGA. No handing out the email address to 3rd parties, but you agree to get referendum notifications as a condition of joining. So far in the last couple months, I’ve gotten exactly one email from WGA, so I don’t think that’s burdensome.

Just as the Board gets called to task for putting in the effort to act in a timely manner, I think it’s incumbent on the membership to take the responsibility for helping shape the direction and vision of the organization.

All of this being said, in most governmental elections (where the stakes are much higher by the way), not including presidential elections, 15% is not unusually low for voter turnout. I don’t see where saying that only 15% of people voted is a real argument to invalidate the results. Heck, your average Gallup poll is lucky to catch 1 in 10,000 people it’s targeted at.

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your views, which I think are right on target.

The only quibble that I have, is about the emails, since I do know that those with hyperactive spam filters might have missed the mailing. I have Yahoo, and my email went to the spam filter, so I do think that there are a handful of folks out there like BQ who missed the chance to vote and offer an opinion prior to the decision being made, and that is quite unfortunate. We do need to do our best to make sure all members are notified of all votes that may affect them, and we will strive to do better in getting out notifications.

zuma

[Bushwhacking Queen]

@zuma wrote:

Hi BQ,

Thanks for sharing your views, and I appreciate you taking the time to share your views here. The BOD acted upon the feedback we were getting from our members, and many people shared their views prior to the decision, and helped us shaped the new policy. We also felt that there was a need to take action because the past policy was damaging to the reputation of the WGA, both within the state and with the general geocaching community at large.
As far as going out and doing it ourselves, 6 of the 9 current BOD members and one former BOD member were at Governor Dodge this weekend preparing for the campout, putting out over 50 temps, and doing our best to make the event a success and fun for everyone. Personally, I had a great walk in Governor Dodge today, and the only smiley that I got out of it was the one on my face, enjoying exploring an amazing place.
I am sorry that you did not get to vote. We did send an email out to all WGA members, in addition to soliciting input here in the forums. If you are one of the few who did not get the email, you might want to check if your spam filter nabbed it. There may be other issues that we vote on in the future, and you will want to get future emails, so check your spam filter. If that doesnt fix the problem, send a note to Jeremy and he can likely help you troubleshoot why you might have missed the notification. We do want input from all members, and we value your views.

zuma

Ralph,

First let me address your last comment about “going out and doing.” That was not directed to the BOD but the cachers that sit at the computers complaining about what others do/say, trying to influence others to believe that why they cache is why others should cache and how others should log/not log, etc.

Second, regarding the reputation of the WGA due to the multiple logging. I would think it would be reflective more on the individuals that log multiple finds than the cache owner. Russell 53040 has (had) and 18 stage multi and he allowed each finder to log multiple finds. Is he being drug over the coals?

Honestly, I am unfamiliar with all the stink that is being said because I don’t visit the gc.com forums. No cachers have contacted me directly regarding how I play the game, which includes logging multiple attends at events. If they did, I would politely tell them that everyone plays the game different. I can go into detail how people do things that others may feel are wrong, unethical, etc., but it doesn’t really matter as it is how they choose to play and it is just an opinion.

[zuma]

@Bushwhacking Queen wrote:

@zuma wrote:

Hi BQ,

Thanks for sharing your views, and I appreciate you taking the time to share your views here. The BOD acted upon the feedback we were getting from our members, and many people shared their views prior to the decision, and helped us shaped the new policy. We also felt that there was a need to take action because the past policy was damaging to the reputation of the WGA, both within the state and with the general geocaching community at large.
As far as going out and doing it ourselves, 6 of the 9 current BOD members and one former BOD member were at Governor Dodge this weekend preparing for the campout, putting out over 50 temps, and doing our best to make the event a success and fun for everyone. Personally, I had a great walk in Governor Dodge today, and the only smiley that I got out of it was the one on my face, enjoying exploring an amazing place.
I am sorry that you did not get to vote. We did send an email out to all WGA members, in addition to soliciting input here in the forums. If you are one of the few who did not get the email, you might want to check if your spam filter nabbed it. There may be other issues that we vote on in the future, and you will want to get future emails, so check your spam filter. If that doesnt fix the problem, send a note to Jeremy and he can likely help you troubleshoot why you might have missed the notification. We do want input from all members, and we value your views.

zuma

Ralph,

First let me address your last comment about “going out and doing.” That was not directed to the BOD but the cachers that sit at the computers complaining about what others do/say, trying to influence others to believe that why they cache is why others should cache and how others should log/not log, etc.

Second, regarding the reputation of the WGA due to the multiple logging. I would think it would be reflective more on the individuals that log multiple finds than the cache owner. Russell 53040 has (had) and 18 stage multi and he allowed each finder to log multiple finds. Is he being drug over the coals?

Honestly, I am unfamiliar with all the stink that is being said because I don’t visit the gc.com forums. No cachers have contacted me directly regarding how I play the game, which includes logging multiple attends at events. If they did, I would politely tell them that everyone plays the game different. I can go into detail how people do things that others may feel are wrong, unethical, etc., but it doesn’t really matter as it is how they choose to play and it is just an opinion.

Hey BQ,

Sorry if I misunderstood. I just felt it important to note that the members of the WGA BOD are doers, not just talkers. We dont do everything that we want to or that we should do, and we make mistakes, and there is always more that can be done. But I do believe that the WGA is pretty well represented with the current BOD.

As to not being familiar with the issue, I do think that those who live in Washington and Waukesha Counties have a different viewpoint on temps than cachers in the rest of the state, and in the rest of the country. The culture there has been to log multiple temps, and I understand how hard it is to change a culture, especially when it is so long standing and pervasive.

A couple of factoids that may (or may not) interest you:

1. If you go to the Boulter list and click on sort on number of events logged, you will find that 8 of 10 top loggers of event attenders are WI residents, and 7 of the 8 live in Waukesha or Washington county, or quite nearby. Now, I wouldnt care, but people in the general geocacaching community do look at that, and the reputation of the WGA has suffered as a result.

2. Though you did not get a chance to vote, and that is a shame, I did watch the voting. The vast majority of votes in favor of continuing multi logging were from Washington and Waukesha County. In the rest of the state, there were very very few people who wanted to continue the practice.

I point out this two factoids because I think they explain the difference in your perception from the majority. In your region, multi logging of temps is part of the culture, and since “everybody does it,” it must be OK. So, I understand how hard it can be for folks who see it as commonplace and normal to be shocked and upset by the vote of a majority of our members and the BOD’s decision. If somebody said that I couldn’t do something that seems fine to me based on the culture of the local community, I would be upset too. I guess that is why I sympathize with your position. (Plus, I like ya.)

But you should know that it is not considered good practice by the majority of folks in WI or elsewhere. Since Groundspeak changed the logging of events to remove the “found” option for an event, most cachers in most places have figured out that multiple logging of events was not a good practice. Instead, most events in most places now have permanent caches to support the event, which is the direction that I would like us to take. If we have perms instead of temps, we can still have as much fun, without the stigma associated with multiple logging of temps.

Anyway, we will get thru this culture clash just fine, though it seems like a big deal right now. It is not really that big of deal, and there will be plenty of caches at future WGA events. And since you may not have read my initial post on this topic when it started, I will add my personal opinion that I dont think it is anyone’s business how other folks log their finds. My main concerns is that we make decisions desired by a majority of our members, and that we protect the reputation of the WGA.

zuma

[K0rpl]

My personal opinion, and I am sure it will burn bridges is that Everone has to play the game the way they want. I have logged Temps in the past, as I am well aware that many others have as well. It is my feeling, that if people don’t play the game they way they want then this game will cease to exist. Temps came into play when there were not the number of caches that there are now. Now, there are a ton of Permanent caches to be found, and the temps are no longer as important to the advancement of geocahing in general.

Once again, My 2 Cents.

Justin

[StarWarsGuy]

I have been a member of the WGA for a while now. I do have the “yes” to the newsletter marked on my account. I have never recieved one. Until this past referendum I was unaware of that section. I caught it two days late and missed the vote. it is someting I will be checking more often now.

As far as the decieson. I am glad to see it was put up to a vote of the members. there are strong views on both sides…….so to “let things be” was hard to do.

If this organization it going to be our states representitive of Geocaching, we must follow what is accepted for WGA events.

personal events are still up to each individual. Goundspeak guidelines spacificly refer to a “Temporary Cache” as a cache that will not be published for less than 3 months or at event. It says you can provide printouts on the day of an event for temps. So they do exist, and can be placed. There is just no way provided to log them.

Personal events do not have the bank roll of the WGA. A couple of extra finds make some people happy…….great.

I do like the idea for WGA events to have some sort of prize. 10 temps —get all ten stamps—-get a prize sort of thing. It does encorage the hunt of the temps. FOX6 had a cache event like that. The whole event wasn’t logiable, but if you found all their caches on the day you got a coin.

WGA events no temp…..good idea
personal event temps…Do what you choose to get cachers out there.

Just my thoughts…..afterthoughts.

I have always thought of Temp caches as an “ECO_BOOST”. If you attended an event with temps, it was like the power pellot in Pac-Man. Plus you got to meet some cachers and get new ideas for caches.

I have also seen some event holders spacificly say “I do have temp but please do not log this event more that once.”

If that should occur we must repect the event holders request. Such is now the request of WGA events.

StarWarsGuy

[zuma]

@StarWarsGuy wrote:

I have been a member of the WGA for a while now. I do have the “yes” to the newsletter marked on my account. I have never recieved one. Until this past referendum I was unaware of that section. I caught it two days late and missed the vote. it is someting I will be checking more often now.

As far as the decieson. I am glad to see it was put up to a vote of the members. there are strong views on both sides…….so to “let things be” was hard to do.

If this organization it going to be our states representitive of Geocaching, we must follow what is accepted for WGA events.

personal events are still up to each individual. Goundspeak guidelines spacificly refer to a “Temporary Cache” as a cache that will not be published for less than 3 months or at event. It says you can provide printouts on the day of an event for temps. So they do exist, and can be placed. There is just no way provided to log them.

Personal events do not have the bank roll of the WGA. A couple of extra finds make some people happy…….great.

I do like the idea for WGA events to have some sort of prize. 10 temps —get all ten stamps—-get a prize sort of thing. It does encorage the hunt of the temps. FOX6 had a cache event like that. The whole event wasn’t logiable, but if you found all their caches on the day you got a coin.

WGA events no temp…..good idea
personal event temps…Do what you choose to get cachers out there.

Just my thoughts…..afterthoughts.

I have always thought of Temp caches as an “ECO_BOOST”. If you attended an event with temps, it was like the power pellot in Pac-Man. Plus you got to meet some cachers and get new ideas for caches.

I have also seen some event holders spacificly say “I do have temp but please do not log this event more that once.”

If that should occur we must repect the event holders request. Such is now the request of WGA events.

StarWarsGuy

Hey StarWarsGuy,

Great points, or afterthougts, as you call them. As you say, temps are still part of the game, and whether they can be logged or not is up to the cache owner.

zuma

[Mister Greenthumb]

I’m looking forward to meeting Zuma at the campout, but I was worried that I wouldn’t know which one he is. Now I know that all I have to do is look for someone with tips of his fingers worn down from keyboarding.

[zuma]

@Mister Greenthumb wrote:

I’m looking forward to meeting Zuma at the campout, but I was worried that I wouldn’t know which one he is. Now I know that all I have to do is look for someone with tips of his fingers worn down from keyboarding.

Hi Bill,

LOL. You are right, I have been active in this forum. My feeling is that all members deserve to be heard, and have their questions answered on this topic, since it is a significant change from past practice.

zuma

[jenhen1]

Zuma’s comments about the temp loggers in the proximity of Waukesha and Washington counties is something I would imagine alot of the long time members either knew or highly suspected and is exactly why Groundspeak probably won’t and probably shouldn’t do anything more than they have already done.

This practice is more of a local/regional thing than I think alot of people care to realize. People don’t widely consider it common practice to log temps in other parts of the country. Groundspeak knows this which is why they have no interest in pursuing it further. Why would they create rules that would only affect a tiny percentage of geocachers worldwide?You can argue that other people do it in other parts of the country, but not to the extent that you see it here in Wisconsin.

This is OUR issue, not anyone else’s. WE need to handle it, and the BOD has done an excellent job of polling the membership, noticing that it’s membership widely shares the majority view of the country/world, and has acted and refuses to condone the practice of logging temps at WGA events. I believe this will go a long way towards repairing a tarnished reputation, brought on by a few, that was quite undeserved.

[blue_cougar54494]

I am fairly new to geocaching & read the forums on here alittle. This 1 caught my eye.
After reading the posts I have a question……is there a possibility for someone to adopt the temporary caches & make then permanent ones (like a week after the event is over with)???
And if anyone who attended this event wants to log caches that were temporary go back & sign the log AFTER the caches have been made permanent ones??
Example: If Event ABC was held 1-1-2009 attended 1-3-2009 & had 10 temporary caches after the event ended & then the temporaries become permanent ones anyone attending the event must go back to resign the log of the cache AFTER the end date of the event to have the cache count towards their total finds. BUT the only way it would count is if a temporary cache was adopted & made permanent.

Becky (blue_cougar54494)

[ArcherDragoon]

@zuma wrote:

@Paul wrote:

I approve of this decision as I think the sport has become more about numbers than going out to see new and unique places.

We have been to the campout at Chippewa Falls and Door County and did not log a temp cache at either one but that is because we decided we would not log temps.

I do enjoy going to the campouts but when they end up west of Madison they end up being a bit too far to drive to.

Us members up north are in the minority because the majority of the members are from the southeast part of the state and that is why the WGA sponsored events are where they are at.

Hey Paul,

Thanks for sharing your views. I agree that the choice of Governor Dodge makes for a bit of a drive for us folks up north, but at least it is also a drive for those in SE Wisconsin. 🙂 I am sure with rising gas prices, and the more distant location, many people will need to factor the distance in.

I have only visited the park once before, and know it to be a beautiful place, so I personally think it is worth the drive, and am really looking forward to the revisit.

I also agree that it is too bad that sometimes the sport of geocaching becomes more about accumulating numbers, than seeing great places. I try to remind myself often that there is no extra soft cloud in heaven for the guy with the most finds. And as far as I know, Garmin is not yet offering big money contracts to endorse their products for people with big numbers.

Geocaching is not a contest, and there really is no big benefit of giving yourself 50 extra smileys, at least no benefit that I can see.

zuma

Sure it is…Who can Drive the Furthest to have fun at the Event???
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.
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Now, I know it ain’t going to be me or RRGoinPostal…(the distance thing)…but we are still going to have fun. Grabbing a couple caches and have a couple drinks…(Personally…having a few more beers then the number of caches we will nab will be great this year) and sitting around the fire and BS-ing with a couple friends…the time of fun will be had!!!

[Author]

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