Discussion of not logging temps, starting with this event

[CacheARRRS]

Well, I WAS sewing a Red Sox patch on my new geocaching hat to get ready for the camp-out…..so it kind of came to me.

BTW, for anyone who might have misunderstood, The “what fun is it to keep score…” was directed to those that care about numbers and have inflated them by using different rules, not that I was saying we should “keep score”.

[marc_54140]

Sunday: hiding of temps for the WGA camp-out

Who: 6 BOD members, and 2 others.

What’s missing: All those who want to hunt the temps.

[Ry and Ny]

@CacheARRRS wrote:

(Unless it was my Red Sox and the Yankees were in town…)

Yep. My two favorite teams are the Sox and whoever’s playing the Yankees.

[Team Black-Cat]

@ArcherDragoon wrote:

[
Sure it is…Who can Drive the Furthest to have fun at the Event???
.
.
.
Now, I know it ain’t going to be me or RRGoinPostal…(the distance thing)…but we are still going to have fun. Grabbing a couple caches and have a couple drinks…(Personally…having a few more beers then the number of caches we will nab will be great this year) and sitting around the fire and BS-ing with a couple friends…the time of fun will be had!!!

A cheeze dragon in Wisconsin?
Keep an eye on this one guys! 😉

Off topic… sorry.

[Ms. WISearcher]

A HUGE thank you to the whole BOD and all of their work they have done and will continue to do. This obviously was a tough decision and wasn’t entered into lightly. I know the challenges that comes with the job-so I for one appreciate the time you all have put into this.

Also, I am a huge supporter of this decision. This decision could encourage more socialization and if it really isn’t about the numbers, people will continue to attend the events!

Thanks BOD for this decision and all you do!

Ms. WISearcher

[StarWarsGuy]

The one main thing about temps was…..there are some people who never stop moving. I like to find a cache a week. Others have to find one a day. Others have a weekly quota for themselves that is much higher. This was a way to at least get them to stop for a minuet to socialize without haveing to think how to get my cache fix.

It was right there along with all the people.

[Ostracon]

You can see from sparse number of posts that I’m not a regular on the WGA forums. I didn’t post any comments on this issue before the vote or decision because I didn’t think voicing a criticized minority opinion was worth losing any friends over. I saw the BOD action on this as something that would happen sooner or later and I had more important things to do than fight a battle over temporary caches.

Now I feel as though I need to defend myself for having lived in my own little corner of the geocaching world and playing the game I wanted to. Please understand that people who have logged temps aren’t from the dark side we just play the game different than those of you that choose not to. A number of comments I’ve heard in the past have an unwritten undercurrent that somehow anybody who would log a temporary cache is immoral or a cheater. Some of those who don’t log temps speak as though they hold the moral high ground. Get a grip, THIS IS A GAME! Personally I log temps (and would prefer to continue the practice), big deal. If it makes you fell better about the game you play feel free to consider me a cheater or even a dirty rotten cheater. Oh and just a warning, I’ll be at the campout you might want to double check that your car doors are locked and guard your women and children because my character can’t be trusted. I’ll be the one trying to pass some fake bills at the pancake breakfast (even though it’s worth twice what our fine WGA hosts charge).

Is a temporary cache a cache? Seems to me it is, even says cache right in the name. I can give you a dozen well reasoned points to support my opinion. I realize you can do the same for your point of view. So here we are with different opinions on how to play the game. I’m really bummed that in order for others to enjoy the game they play I have to alter the game I play when before we both had the option to play the way we wanted to. I have a hard time understanding how taking something away and limiting diversity in our sport is adding to or enhancing it. I‘ve never cared if people in some other state or my own saw my practice as cheating, still don’t.

I’d also like to discourage comments that make is sound like the people who log temps only care about the numbers. I’ve logged the temps I’ve found over the years and don’t feel that’s something to be ashamed about. For me it’s more of a book keeping issue than a numbers one. I see my geocaching.com stats as a personal log book and not a public boast of my find count. I wish I could make my find totals private and drop out of this race I’m somehow corrupting. I’d be absolutely delighted if I could log a temp like I log the benchmarks I find but that’s not an option. I regularly pass up easy micros and park and grabs in favor of an ammo can and a long hike. I’ve spent an entire day hiking to and from a single cache and have backpacked to a cache. I’d rather go caching up in the UP when there are a ton of caches much closer in Milwaukee or Chicago but all I care about is the numbers? Someone is going to need to explain this one to me again. I know people who go to WGA events and don’t do any of the temps because they haven’t felt comfortable logging them and will instead go out and do permanent caches in the area so they can log their finds, is that any more about the numbers, frankly I don’t care. We all play the game different, like different caches and have different goals. We get out of this sport what we look to get out of it. Do some others care only about numbers, I doubt it’s that simple but if they do how does that change my experience or enjoyment level.

I understand how some people see the BOD action as leveling the playing field so we can make an even comparison of our numbers (even though they really don’t matter). Really? Now were all comparing apples to apples, maybe, but were comparing red delicious to granny smiths. Some of us play as individuals and others as families or teams. We have different physical abilities, jobs with different amounts of vacation and unequal pay with which to buy gas for our geocaching trips. Is it fair that southern states can cache all year without snowshoes? How is it that a #5 difficulty or terrain counts for the same single smiley face as a #1. Is getting a hint from someone who has already found the cache cheating? Ban phone a friend! Urban settings have a high cache saturation, rural has few. What if you live on the Door Peninsula, it seems like you’d have to play the game a little different than if you live in Milwaukee or Appleton. Is it fair that the first finder has a tough search and finder #25 can follow the trail to the cache? Every try and cache your way though North Dakota? If you live in Hawaii it’s a major trip to pick up a few caches in another state isn’t it. My point is that the playing field isn’t equal and in order to have this absolute even comparison of cachers that some seem to desire we’d need to have something as complicated and long as the tax code to go by. Believe me if logging caches is as difficult as filling out a 1040 I’m long gone.

Some people have commented that they feel the point of the WGA events is to socialize and that temps aren’t important to modern geocaching. If you attend to socialize and catch up with old friends more power to you, enjoy. Myself, I’m not driving across the state with gas near 4$ per gallon to socialize and I think it’s a shame that a lot of people never venture out in the woods to enjoy the temp caches. For me the temps, smiley or no smiley are the reason I attend. I enjoy the high quality, creative and thoughtful hides that have been prepared for me like a caching banquet. With the exception of ticks and mosquitoes I relish the chance to be outdoors exploring the trails and Wisconsin’s beautiful landscapes. Best of all is the unique opportunity to night cache. I hope these high quality temps remain an important part of WGA events and that the people who despise the practice of logging temps haven’t let those feeling tarnish their opinion of the temporary caches.

I don’t envy the BOD and the rock and hard place they’ve been between on this issue. I respect the decision they made and the process they used even though I disagree with it, life goes on. Zuma, my respect for you grows with each post, you’re a saint for trying to keep peace. I’m really looking forward to the campout because it’s going to be a first class event as it always has. I plan to get up Saturday morning thinking I can find all the temps knowing that by 5 I’ll probably have only found half of them and my tired legs and feet knowing I won’t find the rest of them. When it’s time for the group picture I’ll most likely be at the farthest possible point from the picnic area. I’ll enjoy an excellent pancake breakfast, say goodbye to friends and cache my way home (Hopefully tick free this year). I went a little over my 2 cents worth so there’s my $1.45.

[gotta run]

@Ostracon wrote:

I see my geocaching.com stats as a personal log book and not a public boast of my find count.

This is the best, most succinct, and most complete argument supporting the practice of being able to log every cache you find using your GPSr…I never did understand why the “anti-temp-logging” people cared a whit about what other people did. Quit nosing into other people’s stats, step away from your PC, and get out and cache.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[zuma]

@gotta run wrote:

@Ostracon wrote:

I see my geocaching.com stats as a personal log book and not a public boast of my find count.

This is the best, most succinct, and most complete argument supporting the practice of being able to log every cache you find using your GPSr…I never did understand why the “anti-temp-logging” people cared a whit about what other people did. Quit nosing into other people’s stats, step away from your PC, and get out and cache.

I agree gotta run. Ostracon said a lot of things that needed saying, but that sentence is indeed the best, most clear statement related to logging temps. In the past, I logged temps myself, and that “personal logbook” way of looking at the stats is exactly why I do not go back and delete the finds.

zuma

[zuma]

@Ostracon wrote:

You can see from sparse number of posts that I’m not a regular on the WGA forums. I didn’t post any comments on this issue before the vote or decision because I didn’t think voicing a criticized minority opinion was worth losing any friends over. I saw the BOD action on this as something that would happen sooner or later and I had more important things to do than fight a battle over temporary caches.

Now I feel as though I need to defend myself for having lived in my own little corner of the geocaching world and playing the game I wanted to. Please understand that people who have logged temps aren’t from the dark side we just play the game different than those of you that choose not to. A number of comments I’ve heard in the past have an unwritten undercurrent that somehow anybody who would log a temporary cache is immoral or a cheater. Some of those who don’t log temps speak as though they hold the moral high ground. Get a grip, THIS IS A GAME! Personally I log temps (and would prefer to continue the practice), big deal. If it makes you fell better about the game you play feel free to consider me a cheater or even a dirty rotten cheater. Oh and just a warning, I’ll be at the campout you might want to double check that your car doors are locked and guard your women and children because my character can’t be trusted. I’ll be the one trying to pass some fake bills at the pancake breakfast (even though it’s worth twice what our fine WGA hosts charge).

Is a temporary cache a cache? Seems to me it is, even says cache right in the name. I can give you a dozen well reasoned points to support my opinion. I realize you can do the same for your point of view. So here we are with different opinions on how to play the game. I’m really bummed that in order for others to enjoy the game they play I have to alter the game I play when before we both had the option to play the way we wanted to. I have a hard time understanding how taking something away and limiting diversity in our sport is adding to or enhancing it. I‘ve never cared if people in some other state or my own saw my practice as cheating, still don’t.

I’d also like to discourage comments that make is sound like the people who log temps only care about the numbers. I’ve logged the temps I’ve found over the years and don’t feel that’s something to be ashamed about. For me it’s more of a book keeping issue than a numbers one. I see my geocaching.com stats as a personal log book and not a public boast of my find count. I wish I could make my find totals private and drop out of this race I’m somehow corrupting. I’d be absolutely delighted if I could log a temp like I log the benchmarks I find but that’s not an option. I regularly pass up easy micros and park and grabs in favor of an ammo can and a long hike. I’ve spent an entire day hiking to and from a single cache and have backpacked to a cache. I’d rather go caching up in the UP when there are a ton of caches much closer in Milwaukee or Chicago but all I care about is the numbers? Someone is going to need to explain this one to me again. I know people who go to WGA events and don’t do any of the temps because they haven’t felt comfortable logging them and will instead go out and do permanent caches in the area so they can log their finds, is that any more about the numbers, frankly I don’t care. We all play the game different, like different caches and have different goals. We get out of this sport what we look to get out of it. Do some others care only about numbers, I doubt it’s that simple but if they do how does that change my experience or enjoyment level.

I understand how some people see the BOD action as leveling the playing field so we can make an even comparison of our numbers (even though they really don’t matter). Really? Now were all comparing apples to apples, maybe, but were comparing red delicious to granny smiths. Some of us play as individuals and others as families or teams. We have different physical abilities, jobs with different amounts of vacation and unequal pay with which to buy gas for our geocaching trips. Is it fair that southern states can cache all year without snowshoes? How is it that a #5 difficulty or terrain counts for the same single smiley face as a #1. Is getting a hint from someone who has already found the cache cheating? Ban phone a friend! Urban settings have a high cache saturation, rural has few. What if you live on the Door Peninsula, it seems like you’d have to play the game a little different than if you live in Milwaukee or Appleton. Is it fair that the first finder has a tough search and finder #25 can follow the trail to the cache? Every try and cache your way though North Dakota? If you live in Hawaii it’s a major trip to pick up a few caches in another state isn’t it. My point is that the playing field isn’t equal and in order to have this absolute even comparison of cachers that some seem to desire we’d need to have something as complicated and long as the tax code to go by. Believe me if logging caches is as difficult as filling out a 1040 I’m long gone.

Some people have commented that they feel the point of the WGA events is to socialize and that temps aren’t important to modern geocaching. If you attend to socialize and catch up with old friends more power to you, enjoy. Myself, I’m not driving across the state with gas near 4$ per gallon to socialize and I think it’s a shame that a lot of people never venture out in the woods to enjoy the temp caches. For me the temps, smiley or no smiley are the reason I attend. I enjoy the high quality, creative and thoughtful hides that have been prepared for me like a caching banquet. With the exception of ticks and mosquitoes I relish the chance to be outdoors exploring the trails and Wisconsin’s beautiful landscapes. Best of all is the unique opportunity to night cache. I hope these high quality temps remain an important part of WGA events and that the people who despise the practice of logging temps haven’t let those feeling tarnish their opinion of the temporary caches.

I don’t envy the BOD and the rock and hard place they’ve been between on this issue. I respect the decision they made and the process they used even though I disagree with it, life goes on. Zuma, my respect for you grows with each post, you’re a saint for trying to keep peace. I’m really looking forward to the campout because it’s going to be a first class event as it always has. I plan to get up Saturday morning thinking I can find all the temps knowing that by 5 I’ll probably have only found half of them and my tired legs and feet knowing I won’t find the rest of them. When it’s time for the group picture I’ll most likely be at the farthest possible point from the picnic area. I’ll enjoy an excellent pancake breakfast, say goodbye to friends and cache my way home (Hopefully tick free this year). I went a little over my 2 cents worth so there’s my $1.45.

Hi Ostracon,

Wow, for a guy who doesn’t post much in the forum, you have a lot of GREAT insights! Thanks for sharing your views. I agree with you about 99% of the way, except I can tell you that WI Robin will vehemently argue against the inference that zuma is saintly in any way.

Your points about going after harder, fun ones in rural areas instead of easy park and grabs are exceptionally well made. Peronally, I do both. But like you, I much prefer doing a memorable hike to an interesting scenic spot, rather than stopping at “Park and Dash #46.”

zuma

[TyeDyeSkyGuy]

@zuma wrote:

@gotta run wrote:

@Ostracon wrote:

I see my geocaching.com stats as a personal log book and not a public boast of my find count.

This is the best, most succinct, and most complete argument supporting the practice of being able to log every cache you find using your GPSr…I never did understand why the “anti-temp-logging” people cared a whit about what other people did. Quit nosing into other people’s stats, step away from your PC, and get out and cache.

I agree gotta run. Ostracon said a lot of things that needed saying, but that sentence is indeed the best, most clear statement related to logging temps. In the past, I logged temps myself, and that “personal logbook” way of looking at the stats is exactly why I do not go back and delete the finds.

zuma

Ditto.

I too have logged temp caches as extra attended, because at the time, I was told it was the norm. But after finding out that the rest of the world of geocachers doesn’t log them, and they look down on us as a whole, I didn’t want to be a part of it anymore. I didn’t want to be the cause of the frustration of the rest of the caching world.

I never went back and deleted my old logs for those temps because I don’t want anyone to think I’m trying to hide the fact that I did log them. On the contrary, I’m proud of those finds, and hate the fact that ones since, and ones in the future won’t count. But the fact is, they don’t. And unless we want to get groundspeak to change the rules for us, and us alone, we have to live with it.

Complaining about the problem will solve nothing. I would like the finds to count, but not enough that it’s worth the effort to do something about it. It just does not mean that much to me. But the image of Wisconsin as a whole does. That’s why I supported the decision to stop logging.

Now, if the few of you who find this issue that important and want to get together and petition groundspeak to change the rule, or make temporary finds count towards out find totals. I support that too. I’ll even sign the petition. But I’m not going to go out of my way to do it for you, because it’s not that important. It’s just a number. Caching is about friends, it’s about the outdoors, and it’s about the finds.

It’s just a number.

It’s just a number.

It’s just a number.

[gotta run]

Regarding the “Why does a 5 count the same as a 1” question, that’s why we like to use a program like CacheStats so we can keep track of difficulty/terrain ratings. Just another dimension we find interesting.

Yes, the smileys count the same between them, but smileys really count for nothing in the scheme of things anyway, so as long as there are ways to keep track of stats and memories in the game that is meaningful to us that’s all we’re looking for. We do actually look back at caches and logs on occasion for a trip down memory lane or to see what’s up.

Oh, and here’s time for my shameless letterboxing plug, so you can quit reading now. The bonus there is you end up with an illustrated journal over time, which lasts longer than most swag you’d trade for.

So bottom line is, keep stats–or not–in whatever way makes you happy. Which is why this whole issue with temps is so asinine.

But, I can understand why the BOD took a stance on it, given the fact that meddling malcontents from surrounding states looked down their upturned noses at the WGA because of it.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[GetMeOutdoors]

Well, I admit that I haven’t read ALL the posts in this forum but some of the ones that stood out.

I am definately a supporter of logging each cache found. And though there seems to be a huge controversy around this idea, I do not understand why this would not be commonly accepted. They are separate caches with separate coordinates and each temp cache stand out in it’s own right as a cache, except for the fact that it is temporary. The temporary nature of each cache seem to strengthen the case for individual logging. It’s like a limited time sale at Menards or something… you get extra credit for being in the right place at the right time.

That having been said, I have not heard an objective argument as to why an event with many individual temporary caches should be logged only once. Certainly the permanent caches may be logged individually, why not the temps as well. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

So some view their stats differently, some seriously, some not so much, regardless, why should a cacher finding 1 temporary cache get the same credit as the cacher who found them all (20?). I forget who said it, but the event itself should come up with some creative incentive for finding temporary caches if that incentive cannot be stats.

Now, after all that, the WGA event is the WGA’s event and can certainly do with it what it wishes. It sounds like it might turn some people off, but not enough to make the event a dud. Every cache owner / event owner, etc has the right to make those kinds of decisions, so I guess I can’t really argue about it, all I can do is whine. And any other “group” sponsoring an event still has the freedom to run their event the way they wish to, which may be allowing the multiple finds. So it’s really not that big of a deal I guess.

[Team Black-Cat]

@GetMeOutdoors wrote:

…I guess I can’t really argue about it, all I can do is whine.

And you do it so well! 😉
Sorry! Uncalled for and off topic.
To be more on topic, let me state again that I have no concerns about how anyone else logs their finds. I do find it interesting, however, that quite a few proponents of logging temps state that the numbers don’t matter. When I look at some event logs, I see dozens of cut and paste “Found cache X while at the event” logs. If it’s not for the numbers, then why not mention each found cache in a single attended log instead?

A better way for anyone using GSAK is to keep track of finds there. You would have an accurate count of the caches you’ve found and wouldn’t irritate the no temps camp.

[furfool]

One of the things I find interesting in this argument is the fact that most seem to say that it is not about the numbers. Those that are against logging temps have their reasons. However, they seem to be the ones most vocal about denying others the right to log temps, thus they are concerned about the numbers. I haven’t seen anything written here from temp loggers about how those who don’t log temps should be doing so. Personally, to each their own. There are days when I want to find as many as I can in a short period of time, and days when I have all the time in the world and will only do a couple. Am I a numbers guy? It all depends on the day.
This argument reminds me of the argument between bow hunters. Compound users against crossbow users against recurve users against longbow users. All this argument is going to do is pit cachers against cachers. And it has one helluva good start. This is a game with no winners. But once this sport starts getting torn apart by the indifferences of how one thinks others should be playing, evryone will be a loser.

[Author]

Posts