Discussion of not logging temps, starting with this event

[cheezehead]

I’m not trying to start noting here but, how do you log a temp? Where on GC.com is there a way to log a temp? Attending an event is not a cache find. I’m not against against anyone logging a temp, but there needs to be a space to do it. Until GC.com makes it so you can only attend an event ONCE this debate will go on and on. So here is another option I just thought of. Make each cache an event! That should work then right? Each event has a GC number right. So make it so there is 10-25 or whatever events at the park. Each event has given coords, has a description and every thing else a regular cache has. And when the event is done, there all done. Maybe GC.com should make it an option to show ones stats. That way it’s up to the player open to the general public. If no one can see your stats, then they can’t bitch.

This subject kind of reminds me of skiing. So people use the classic method and some use the skating method. I’m not sure who many are familiar with the Birkie ski race that is held up here. Well, The classic skiers lobbied and now they are making a classic trail and a skating trail, side by side.
Maybe this is what GC.com need to make, a classic log and a new age log

[Hylife]

@cheezehead wrote:

I’m not trying to start noting here but, how do you log a temp? Where on GC.com is there a way to log a temp? Attending an event is not a cache find. I’m not against against anyone logging a temp, but there needs to be a space to do it. Until GC.com makes it so you can only attend an event ONCE this debate will go on and on. So here is another option I just thought of. Make each cache an event! That should work then right? Each event has a GC number right. So make it so there is 10-25 or whatever events at the park. Each event has given coords, has a description and every thing else a regular cache has. And when the event is done, there all done. Maybe GC.com should make it an option to show ones stats. That way it’s up to the player open to the general public. If no one can see your stats, then they can’t bitch.

This subject kind of reminds me of skiing. So people use the classic method and some use the skating method. I’m not sure who many are familiar with the Birkie ski race that is held up here. Well, The classic skiers lobbied and now they are making a classic trail and a skating trail, side by side.
Maybe this is what GC.com need to make, a classic log and a new age log

Instead of going through all that trouble, why not create 10 or so new, respectable permanent caches at the park in which the WGA event is being held? Then ask a WGA member who lives nearby to check on them once in a while, or when need be?

I agree with the sentiment that this should NOT be a numbers game, but it is a game nontheless, and 10 seems like a good number..

But I totally support the decision, seeing that is how the majority of the *voters* want it..

[zuma]

@~Hylife~ wrote:

@cheezehead wrote:

I’m not trying to start noting here but, how do you log a temp? Where on GC.com is there a way to log a temp? Attending an event is not a cache find. I’m not against against anyone logging a temp, but there needs to be a space to do it. Until GC.com makes it so you can only attend an event ONCE this debate will go on and on. So here is another option I just thought of. Make each cache an event! That should work then right? Each event has a GC number right. So make it so there is 10-25 or whatever events at the park. Each event has given coords, has a description and every thing else a regular cache has. And when the event is done, there all done. Maybe GC.com should make it an option to show ones stats. That way it’s up to the player open to the general public. If no one can see your stats, then they can’t bitch.

This subject kind of reminds me of skiing. So people use the classic method and some use the skating method. I’m not sure who many are familiar with the Birkie ski race that is held up here. Well, The classic skiers lobbied and now they are making a classic trail and a skating trail, side by side.
Maybe this is what GC.com need to make, a classic log and a new age log

Instead of going through all that trouble, why not create 10 or so new, respectable permanent caches at the park in which the WGA event is being held? Then ask a WGA member who lives nearby to check on them once in a while, or when need be?

I agree with the sentiment that this should NOT be a numbers game, but it is a game nontheless, and 10 seems like a good number..

But I totally support the decision, seeing that is how the majority of the *voters* want it..

Hi Hylife,

Thanks for sharing your views. And I agree with you that good quality permanent caches are what most of us want to support the event. Several of the perms at Governor Dodge are still there from when the campout was held their several years ago, and have caused no harm. Just the opposite, they are a valuable feature of the park, and makes a visit that much more enjoyable for geocachers.

So far, 4 new perm caches have been placed at Gov Dodge, in anticipation of the campout, to get to the number you mention, that is 10. There is room for more, if the local people want to put them out. For most of us, Governor Dodge is too far away to provide reasonable maintenance, so it is up to the folks in the local area to place them.

This is really no different than what happens at GeoWoodstock or Midwest Geobash. The event organizers place no new caches for the event, and instead rely on the local people to put out caches, as they see fit.

As far as numbers go, I like an easy smiley as much as the next guy. But what I really like, is a nice hike to a great place, and if it takes an hour or more to get a great cache, all the better. That is pretty much what the existing caches in Governor Dodge are: Nice hikes in a great place.

zuma

[seekers8711]

We support the BOD!

IMHO:

1. Any member could have voted if she/he wished. If someone doesn’t read the forums, why complain?

2. Do NUMBERS really mean so much? We’ve only been to three events, but the fellowship is what mattered to us; good people sharing highlights of this great sport.

3. We, (a majority members who voted), elected the BOD to govern us. We’ll support them 100%. Guess that’s why it’s called a Democracy.

Just my $ .02 worth.

[Ostracon]

I can appreciate that many cachers attend the WGA events to socialize; it’s a very enjoyable aspect of these gatherings. Myself I attend more so because I enjoy finding the excellent temporary caches and exploring the beautiful host locations. From some post I’m getting this idea that I’m doing something else wrong. I don’t think the concept of going to a geocaching event to enjoy some geocaching really needs to be defended. It doesn’t mean your antisocial if you go out to find the temps, socializing and caching during an event are not mutually exclusive. I spend most of the day out on the trail with the 2_UP_Geologist. Lori is my sister and since they live in the UP these events are a great way for us to get together and socialize while doing something we all enjoy. Over the years I’ve meet a lot of cachers on the trail and had great conversations with many of them. Why does it matter to anyone else if I’m out finding temps or at the picnic area talking or someplace watching birds? No one is forcing me to do one or the other and I’ll apportion my time as I see fit.

Back to the subject of logging temps and numbers; my numbers are important to me. It’s a reminder of the places I’ve been and caches (even temps) that I’ve found. What I don’t understand is why my numbers are important to anyone else. How do my numbers affect the enjoyment of another player unless some of their enjoyment comes from comparing find totals? If comparing numbers is part of your game I think you fall outside GC.com’s guidelines/intentions as much as I do when I log temps.

That’s my buck 0 five.

[Ry and Ny]

When I was a kid, there was one family in town that were naturalists (the term nudist was still PC at the time, I believe). They had a tall privacy fence in their backyard so they could enjoy their lifestyle without being in accidental view of anyone else. This didn’t sit well with the small-town conservative mindset at the time. They were asked to cease but answered back “hey, how do you even know if there’s a problem unless you’re peeking between the slats? Even then, why do you care?” The other side was “There are other kids in the neighborhood and kids just do that, and we don’t care to have them exposed to that lifestyle.” “But we’re not doing anything illegal!!!”

Eventually, the city enacted an ordinance that limited the height of privacy fences in the city limits to 6 feet. They gave approximately 3 months for anyone in violation of the ordinance to clear it up. The family refused and ended up accumulating about $10,000 in fines before leaving. The next owner of the house rectified the issue immediately and the fine was rescinded.

Now, the moral of this story is not to discuss how opressive the city was or to argue the merits or detractions of the lifestyle. The point is that, whether you or I as individuals don’t see why anyone else should care about a certain “style” or “way” of geocaching, the fact is that, obviously, they do. That is the society that is geocaching in general and that is the “societal standard” whether there is legislation to that effect or not.

We live in a society that functions on perception, not necessarily on reality. My other hobby is high powered rocketry. Right now, post 9/11, there’s a public perception that these things are dangerous since they’re just a guidance system away from being guided missiles, so the ATFE is regulating our solid motors as explosives. The reality is that a) the motors don’t explode–in fact they have the same burn rate as notebook paper and b) frankly, the guidance system on a rocket would be light years ahead of what hobbyists are capable of. The number of hobbyists is small. The number of people who are aware of the hobby and are freaked out about it is small as well, but it’s considerably larger than the number who are involved in the hobby. 95% of the people in the country, if you asked them about what they thought about making an H class motor would scratch their head and say “uhh…I don’t know and I don’t care.”

The same is true here. We have a small group of people who wish to log temps. We have significantly more that are opposed to logging temps. The vast majority probably don’t care either way. But, the group who oppose is considerably larger than the group who actively support. As such, just like in the rest of the world and with just about any topic, the larger minority gets its way.

What it all boils down to is that on this issue, both sides have their reason for disagreeing with the other side. Both sides have valid discussion points and both sides are apparently equally unable to process the discussion points of the other side. The thing is, though, that it just doesn’t matter. The WGA has decided officially that it doesn’t want to take the minority stand. It’s not the BoD who’s spoken out, it’s the membership. We, as an organization, have decided to dissasociate the organization from the practice of temp logging. That’s the way the world works. The WGA has decided to land on the side of the majority.

Now, I’m never going to be one who looks down on anyone for logging temps and I disagree with those who will do so. That being said, if nobody’s numbers but your own matter, I’d better not get a reply to an opinion of mine that “you only have 26 finds, so what do you know?!?!?” or any softer or milder variation of the same from anyone.

[-cheeto-]

you only have 26 finds, so what do you know?!?!?

just kidding… I have more than 26 finds and I still dont know anything…

very nice response to all this.

[CacheARRRS]

Ry and Ny,

I see your point and I agree with it in almost everything. The only place I differ is your relation to the matter as a “lifestyle”. It is not the same thing. That is like taking your baseball team to a game, and wanting to log extra runs for each cup in the stands, or each car in the lot, while the other team doesn’t do that. You can’t say “but I think we should be able to” when there is a standard set of rules.

If you want to play by different rules, start your own league. That’s what the city did in your story. they went to the rules makers, and had the rules changed to fit their wants and needs.

I don’t care if people log temps or not either, I really don’t. If there wasn’t a rule, I would LOVE to log them since I DO love looking at my numbers. I just am a follow the rules kind of guy I guess. I don’t speed. I never tried any drugs. I follow the rules. I just think that people using the “I want to play by MY rules” are just not seeing the big picture.

Fine, play by YOUR rules. Just don’t ask us to change OUR rules to suite your tastes, or get mad when we chastise you for breaking them.

Note: This is not critical of anyone in any way. As I read back I see it sounds sort of snippy, and that is not my intent. I just feel A LOT of people are missing the point. Not in any negative way, just pointing out a different view on it maybe. (Plus I LOVE reading really long posts full of passion on a subject, so maybe this will get a few more out of some of you. 8) )

[wooden_nickel]

Ostracon, you have suggested some great thoughts on this ongoing topic. We were talking about this topic 4 years ago and still are. I do not often add anything to this discussion, because I am not sure if either “side” will ever agree or see exactly what the other “side” is saying. I do notice that a majority of posts are from those that are not happy with the boards decision. A few thoughts I have from reading all the posts:

1. I commend and thank the board for making a tough decision. They represent the membership. We all voted them in. They coordinate and lead the WGA events, so they are the ones that need to set the protocol for WGA events.

2. As far as the voting process not being true. I disagree. I have not been actively caching or keeping up with the forums here, but I did get the e-mail and I did vote in the referendum. I think everyone had the chance to vote if they wanted to. Just because the results may have not turned out one way or another, attacking the process does not help change the result.

@Ostracon wrote:

Back to the subject of logging temps and numbers; my numbers are important to me. It’s a reminder of the places I’ve been and caches (even temps) that I’ve found. What I don’t understand is why my numbers are important to anyone else. How do my numbers affect the enjoyment of another player unless some of their enjoyment comes from comparing find totals? If comparing numbers is part of your game I think you fall outside GC.com’s guidelines/intentions as much as I do when I log temps.

3. A couple points here: If personal numbers are important to people, so be it. Play the game the way you want. What is interesting is your comment about comparing. IMHO, there are many people that are just as interested in their numbers as they are in comparing with others. In essence, making it a competition. I find it interesting that many people say their count is for personal record and then are lost without the IABTN site if it goes down. All personal stats are available on your gc.com profile. Why do we need a *ranking* site unless this is really about comparing with each other. As I stated, I believe many people use their numbers to compare therefore missing GC.com’s guidelines/intentions as you mention. I think the functionality of IABTN is great for the personal stats it provides, I just have never fully seen the need for ranking.

4. I think it is the point above as well as the bad press against Wisconsin geocachers that often drives individuals to support no longer allowing the logging of temps, not because they are looking to level the playing field. Many people who argue against logging of temps also believe in the play the game as you would like. I see these as different issues. The issue is many believe the true intent when geocaching started was never to have it result in a competition.

5. I am saddened to hear people would skip a WGA event because of this decision. While I understand the difficulty of gas prices, I think it is sad that people would not show up because they cannot log each and every cache as a find. If people like to mad cache all day, see the outdoors, get some exercise, catch up with a good caching friend, all that can still happen. No one has taken that away. A great sense of accomplishment can still be had by knowing you found all the caches on the list even if you do not get another tick on the rankings.

6. I hear people say that they like to keep a record of their caching experience. Again, this can still be done. There is nothing saying that in your single attended post, you can’t recall all the caches that you found. That would still be a living record to go back and remember by. If that is not good enough, I do not believe it is really the remembering that is important to those individuals, it is still more about the recognition in numbers. I rarely see detailed temp logs for each cache. It often is a copy ” FOUND IT”.

I am not sure if any of this makes sense. I have no intentions of offending anyone or stepping on anyones toes. I am bummed since I will at a wedding this weekend and not able to attend the campout. I have full confidence it will be a great event, no matter if logging of temp caches is no longer allowed.

[Ostracon]

The overall point that I wanted to make in my previous posts was that I wish there was more of a live and let live attitude and maybe more importantly that people wouldn’t let their view on the issue be something by which they judge other cachers. I understand people have strong feeling on the temp logging issue, me include. I believe an honest and civil debate over ideas is always a good and healthy thing. I don’t mind admitting that the argument against logging temps is full of good points but at the same time I think the pro temp loggers made just as many good points. In the end I can live with the decision that not logging the temps is a better way of doing things but I reject the idea that this will force all of us temp logging malcontents into line. Where I was having a problem was being branded with the scarlet letter T for logging temps. It’s difficult to have a debate or want to enter into one when your side has been labeled as cheaters and number counters. Comments I’ve heard about one team in particular have been absolutely vicious. I know that the attitude and comments I’ve referred to are from a very small group that appears larger because of how vocal they are. I also realize that I probably lost a great deal of my overall point by also trying to justify my position as legitimate and one that is worthy of inclusion in the debate. I’m not posting to disagree with the BOD decision, I’ve said I don’t agree with it but that’s because as part of the minority on this issue I feel the rest of the world is wrong. The decision they reached was 100% fair and well reasoned and I will play by it. More importantly I am grateful for the time and effort they put into hosting such great events, I can’t wait. Have safe travels and see everyone at the campout.

[Cachew]

My idea is to consider these temps as ‘practice caches’! Enjoy!

[GrouseTales]

Well, after another great WGA event, I didn’t notice anything different.

Everything was the same:
– Months of planning
– Dozens of volunteers
– Lots of caches spread around the park.
– Registration
– Lunch
– Meeting
– Night caching
– Social bon fires
– Pancake breakfast
– Cache retrieval
– Sore legs
– Blisters
– Ticks
– Thorn scratches
– Tons of opportunites to explore the park
– Great time spent outdoors
– Packing and unpacking from the camping trip.

The only change was when I got home and logged onto the computer. I left one log instead of many. Gave me a little more time to unpack this morning.

The experience at the event was exactly the same as it’s been for for many years. The only difference was the experience sitting at home in front of the computer when logging “attended”. When I come to these events, I look forward to my time AT THE EVENT, not the time at the COMPUTER.

That was the only difference for me.

Bri

[Thraxman]

@GrouseTales wrote:

The only change was when I got home and logged onto the computer. I left one log instead of many. Gave me a little more time to unpack this morning.
Bri

But some people are into the sport of “Cache-Logging”. That is what is often missed, the fact that there are two separate sports: Geocaching and Cache-Logging. The hunt and the social aspects may or may not be important to Cache-Loggers. For some, the adventure, the fresh air, the hike, and the exercise all pale in comparison to honing the fine art of typing “FOUND IT 1of28 for today TFTC” over and over again.

The WGA CAN satisfy everyone, however. It would be simple. Create a website that allows any number of logs for any cache. The new web site’s database wouldn’t be populated with caches at all, it would simply be a logging facility. Anyone could log finds there at any time, including after an event. But really, anyone could log there at any time. One wouldn’t really even need to visit a cache. Rainy day got ya down? Just log 20 or so finds at wi-geologging dot com.

The WGA could benefit from gaining prestigious letters. It would become the WGAGLA (Wisconsin Geocaching and Geo-Logging Association). Remember, quantity of letters is at least as important as quantity of logs!

[Ry and Ny]

Eh. More gasoline for the fire anyone? 🙄

[GrouseTales]

Joe, I love your sense of humor 🙂

[Author]

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