Ethics and Geocaching – Second Part

[Uncle_Fun]

Each of the members of my family have there own cache name (Uncle_Fun, Geocaching Widow, Corbor and James Bond JR). When we find a cache only those members that were physically present log it as a find. As you may know I also have brothers and other extended family members that geocache (Lost Boyscout, AlphaCat, Parkview, Jolly Tombstone to name a few). Often we get together and do all day type runs. Most recently we went to Janesville for the day. All four of us went to each cache. However, usually we take turns actually writing in the paper log. For example, I would write in the paper log and sign all of our names. Then at the next cache one of the others would do the same. I sure hope this isn’t being percieved as divide and concour because it isn’t.

Quite honestly, I don’t care what others do. They have to be able to sleep at night. I sleep fine, unless there is a new cache out there and I want to try to be first finder in the morning.

Uncle_Fun

[GrouseTales]

[*]This isnt an issue of who holds a pen when four of you are standing around the cache.

[*]This isn’t an issue of a group of people searching for a cache at the same time, one person finds it, and the others come over and sign the log.

[*]This isnt a matter of family members having seperate usernames and logging caches under seperate names.

[*]This isnt an issue of completing the cache as quickly as possible.

[*]This isn’t an issue of whether you in this game for the number or for the quality experience.

This is about LIES !!
This is about Forgery !!
This is about a blatent attempt to falsify logs !!!

This is about an organized consipiracy to forge names and orchastrate lies. This is about Geocachers who are so hell bent on increasing their numbers to gain some sense of self worth, that they are logging caches they have never found !!

If you have never physically been to the cache site, YOU DO NOT GET TO LOG A FIND !!. This is absolutely no different from people who have logged caches on the internet page who have never visited the cache site. I know many people who have caught such frauds and have deleted their cache logs. These were cachers that were trying to artificially inflate their self worth numbers by logging caches they never found.

It’s funny… since this thread started and I addressed this problem, I’ve received almost a dozen emails from people who have singled out the actors involved. The same names are coming up time after time. I’m rather disappointed to see the names of the cachers involved. I know these are good cachers, but apparently your focus on the game is a little twisted.

I’m also a little disappointed to see some of these people playing dumb. If you’re not going to come clean, don’t even post in this thread. I think it would be counter productive to “out” these people in public. I’m afraid of how other geocachers will treat them in the future. I know I will have a hard time since I know. I hope this dumb Llama song haunts you every time you make up a bogus log

I couldn’t give a crap how many caches you’ve found. Here is a news flash…the amount of finds you have does not reflect on how good of a geocacher you are. It only reflects on the amount of time you devote to this sport.

Geocaching if not difficult. It’s quite easy in fact. I can find every cache I look for unless it’s stolen. My numbers are relative low because I don’t spend as much time out there. You could say that the number of finds is proportional to the amount of time you spend geocaching.

I don’t think this is a negative topic. This is something that needs to be addressed. Many people have been saddened by news of this group of “divide and conquer” cachers. News of these lies has taken away the fun for several people. This is a black eye for geocaching in Wisconsin.

Bottom line, again, If you didn’t go to the cache site to look for the cache, you don’t get to log it. STOP THE LIES !!

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“There are two kinds of hunting: ordinary hunting and grouse hunting.”
-Aldo Leopold, A sand county Almanac

Brian
WGA President
Grousetales at wi-geocaching dot com
KC9GMW

[This message has been edited by GrouseTales (edited 11-12-2004).]

[Cashing Out]

First off, I’d like to commend Linus for having the courage to come forward with this disturbing revelation. When I first learned that this dishonest practice was occuring, my initial thoughts went to the many hard working, dedicated cachers who have put in the miles, endured the swarms of mosquitos, hiked through mud and swamps and waded across creeks. How insulting it is to them! Some have said let others play the game the way they want. All games have rules, break the rules and you pay a penalty or are disqualified. It’s what is expected, even demanded, from those who participate. To turn a blind eye, remain indifferent, or justify such actions is against all values we hold as a society. Unfortunately there isn’t a way to ban someone from playing. There is however, a justice that can, and eventually will, be served. Those who have chosen to participate in this lie have only one motivation, the praise and respect of their peers. Once they have been exposed, and I believe eventually they will be, they will lose all of that, and more.
Geocaching relies on the honor system, and unfortunately we have discovered there are those who have no such honor. I for one, will no longer stroke their egos with praise, nor consider their achievements as anything but fraud.
Bob

[kbraband]

When I first read wzbt03’s posts that said that some geocachers were posting logs for caches that they never actually found, I was not overly alarmed. It didn’t seem like that big of a deal. Over the years I’ve seen several questionable trends come and go. These have included: an over abundance of virtual caches seemingly at every roadside stop, geocachers from out of state who argue intensely with you when you question whether they actually found your cache, caches nailed to the sides of trees, enthusiastic geocachers who place more caches than they can reasonably hope to maintain, locationless caches, caches that look like pipe bombs, caches on school property without the school’s knowledge or permission, caches under busy highway bridges, tucked under freeway barriers, and next to electric utility boxes… well you get the idea.

I’ve made mistakes along the way too. No one is perfect. We all learn as we go along. No big deal.

Hopefully, that’s what has happened here as well. A handful of eager geocachers were so enthusiastic about their new activity that they cooked up a way to have even more fun. They read about “teams” going out to look for caches together, and their team decided to split to cover more ground in less time. They didn’t realize or comprehend the uproar this would cause if their practice were to become widely known in the geocaching community. And now that word is out, the community is voicing its displeasure.

The simple thing for those divide-and-conquer geocachers to do now is admit they made a mistake and go back to logging only the caches that they actually sign the log for themselves, with no proxy assistance. (After all, that’s what the log book is for — to sign in, not for someone else to write down your name.) If they want to publicly admit their mistake, that would be fine. If they’re too embarrased to make a public statement of apology, I would understand that. And I hope my fellow WGA members would also. If they do want to fess up publicly, we will listen, understand, and chalk it up as a simple mistake. At the very least, I hope they realize it’s time to stop what they were doing because other geocachers don’t like it and feel their sport is being diminished by this practice.

[Ray]

When I think of geocaching, I think of the good times and great places we have been to. Seeing Grousetales post reminds me of a cache or six we teamed up for last fall. If you have yet to get to a cache by upnorthdoc, you are in for a treat. One two-part multicache comes to mind. Geoffnsara made up the rest of our team. Sara had been hitting these caches HOT, Hooty-hoo this Hooty-hoo that. We managed to find the first WP ahead of her, but she was back in form for the second. At the second, we found bear claw scratches in THE tree so we were watching our backs as we logged the find. Lil Otter had been there in may, we saw her log and Natloh2’s log in September. After logging the find, we went back to the cachemobiles, sucked down some badly needed water, listened to some of the Seahawks-Packers game and talked of the day’s activities. We found that cache as a team. We were all there. Lil otter didn’t get to 3000 caches in a divide and conquer deal nor did Natloh2 find over 1000 in this mode. Each of us made the trek. each of us has our memories of that cache, that day. We can share those memories with one another because we were there.

What memories will YOU be able to share.

[This message has been edited by Trudy & the beast (edited 11-12-2004).]

[Ray]

It seems that Trudy & I are late to come to the realization of who is involved. Personal e-mail and phone calls we have received in the past day all name the same 4 ladies. It seems that it is nearly common knowledge.

You may as well confess, apologize and start making amends.

[greyhounder]

This is the nice thing about my “team” being really just the one person — me. Sometimes I bring others along, but they aren’t “real” geocachers, so they don’t care if they get the find. But in order for me to count the find — I want to see the cache, I’ve got to sign the log. If I go in a group and I’m not the first to find it, it does feel sort of like a fake find to me (that’s a personal issue and probably why I typically cache alone) but I would only count the find if I was there.

Otherwise, imagine all the geocaches I could claim just from hearing about them at events.

And, I was blissfully out of the loop on this one. I suspected that this sort of thing happened, but never so close to home. It’s sort of like learning that the Easter Bunny doesn’t exist.

Ethics are a cultural thing. Looks like the majority of the WGA culture has a negative attitude towards this issue. Of course, there are always those that choose their own path. Myself, I tend to follow rules — not everyone does. Maybe I don’t approve, but no one is getting hurt (physically that is).

Yeah, I’m disappointed by this, but we can’t force others to change their behavior. The only behaviors we can control are our own.

Enough rambling on my part. I’m enjoying these points to ponder. Gives me something to do at work rather than finishing my reports for the month!!!

Bec

[Ray]

Grayhounders response sounds a bit like Andy Rooney.

I have sent a very short e-mail to each of the individuals implicated here. I hope It doesn’t sound like an accusation, because it is in response to hearsay. My intent was to let them know that they are indeed implicated. This was to give them a chance to respond. I had hoped that that response would appear here. Personal e-mail response is acceptable.

I have seen two so far one is a rationalization, neither and admission nor a denial. The other is a lengthy, emotional maintenance of innocence. The second response makes me believe that we cannot be too quick to convict. We need to hear the other side. If and when they are ready.

~tb

[greyhounder]

quote:

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Originally posted by Trudy & the beast:
Grayhounders response sounds a bit like Andy Rooney.

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I’m not sure if this is good or bad…..

Bec

[ecorangers]

Dear Extended Family:

I want to apologize and ask for forgiveness for the mistake now called Divide and Conquer. I truly, truly regret what happened. I know that I have lost any respect and trust I may have earned, and that hurts the most. I have not only disappointed you but also my family. I feel like such a loser.

I accept fully the consequences for my actions. Yet at the risk of sounding like I am making excuses I want to share what happened. In spite of all the rumors flying around, the justified outrage, this was not done to inflate numbers. It was done so everyone in our team would have a chance to find caches, and because we wanted to get all the caches in a park before it closed. Altogether Divide and Conquer happened 3 times. Actually, the numbers from this were minimal. No, it wasn’t 400, 300, or even 50 caches. It was only 10 caches. These logs will be deleted as soon as possible.

I know some of you question whether or not this number is really true. You are probably saying, yeah sure only 10 caches, we know how you got such numbers so fast! While I may not ever make some you believe this unless you have geocached with us, those of you who know my family and me should know that we do put in the time and effort. I won’t bore you with stories of many days of 20 miles of hiking to geocaches, or getting up at 4:30 a.m. to put in 16 hours straight of geocaching. If you want to question me personally about any finds or what happened, or tell me how angry and disappointed you feel, I certainly deserve your email message.

My husband tells me that some of life’s best lessons are the hardest. And what is hard is that I have disappointed many of those that I would call family. I will never, ever do this again. I am sorry. Please forgive me.
-Tami

[Ray]

Tami,
We know how hard this is for you. You have our admiration and respect for coming forward to set the record straight. Please rejoin us on the trails with the knowledge that we understand, that we have made errors in judgement ourselves and we do not want this to be anything more than a lesson in our own frailties.
T&tb

[Bushwhacking Queen]

Dear Fellow Geocachers:

When I originally posted my thread I did not know that I was one of the ones implicated nor had I read thoroughly the prior posted threads. Had I, I wouldn’t have written what I did. Let me start all over: I am sorry for all of this. While it is true that I am somewhat of a Newbie, that isn’t an excuse for Divide and Conquer.

I know I have inconvenienced you enough, but I hope you take a look at my log page. As I was telling a fellow cacher recently in an email, I am very focused when I cache. My goal is to find it, sign it, and on to the next. You can see this if you review my log page. For example, two weeks ago I went to Waupun by myself, cached for four hours, and found nearly 20 caches. This past Saturday I cached for four and a half hours and found 18 caches.

I hope you realize that what happened wasn’t done to pad numbers, but was done for other, still wrong, reasons. I offer no excuses, but accept responsibility for my actions.

I apologize for the uproar that this has caused, and I will delete the ten caches gained through Divide and Conquer. I know that those of you that know me are disappointed, and those that don’t know me as well. I hope you can all forgive me, become friends, and hopefully I can gain your respect. Please believe me that this will never happen again.
-Diane

[AuntieNae]

It has become apparent that the accusations of falsifying cache finds are directed at myself and several others. I am deeply troubled that public accusations without first contacting the individual(s) in question seems to be ethically acceptable in this forum and that others are believing these accusations without first seeking the facts for themselves. I received one email today, just one, asking about this.

I and several other cachers have been teaming up lately to have
a “Girls Day Out” of caching. Because of the distance, we pack ourselves, our gear and our snacks in ONE vehicle and hit the road around 5:00 AM. We do not stop except for gas – once on the way down, once on the return trip. All meals are consumed in the car as we drive to the next cache. We return well after dark. We work as a team, I drive, one person navigates and the other keeps track of the caches.

We have tallied a total of 10 caches that I have logged. Some where done while in the park preserves attempting to get out before the gates are locked at dark. One was done after dark so I had to stay with the car due to lack of parking. These logs have been deleted on my part prior to posting this.

If everyone posting here feels that they are ethical and moral, perhaps they will follow our lead and delete any of their logs.

I have emailed these individuals off the list, perhaps they might step forward as well.

[This message has been edited by Auntienae (edited 11-12-2004).]

[Astro_D]

I have been wrestling with my thoughts and feelings regarding this whole issue. So far, I have kept from voicing my two cents, but no more.

The discussion was on ethics and geocaching. Well I’m chiming in with my take on the ethics of this thread.

“One cornerstone of ethical behavior is not to give credence to accusations –even if the accuser includes himself in the indictment.

Even if you were completely sure that the accusations were correct, that wouldn’t justify publicizing them. Shaming people who misbehave is a last resort, not a first line of action.

The best policy should have been to discuss the matter directly with the person(s) you suspected. Mention what you have heard or witnessed, explain in a patient and non-threatening way why you think these acts are unethical and could result in possible community disgrace. Be prepared to listen with an open mind to any denials or explanations provided for their behavior”. (I add quotation marks only because I am paraphrasing another trustworthy source).

To publically humiliate someone(s) is one of the lowest blows a person can make. Yes, isn’t that what this all resolved into?

Where ever the wind may blow with this, there are hurt feelings on all sides, issues of trust, and proper judgements. There is a long road ahead……

[Ray]

It is a brave act to come forward as Auntienae, Bushwacking Queen and Earth angel have. They have grown from this experience and I hope the rest of us have as well. Rumor mills are very destructive to all involved. The only way to qwell these vicious rumors is to hear out both sides. To set the record straight. These ladies have shown an other mark of character that should be pointed out. Not one word of blame has been placed by them. They have taken responsibility for their actions. In retrospect, their error has taken a more trivial dimension. Please accept my heartfelt appology for taking a less than neutral position without hearing the whole story. You three have shown a strength of character that is admirable.

“To err is human; to forgive is divine.”
— Alexander Pope (1688-1744)

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