Event Cache Finds

[wzbt03]

This has been something of a puzzle to me and I just thought I would throw out the topic.
I know that there are those who do not log event caches at all and I am sure there are those who log just one find even with the “temporary” ones being found.
What would be the proper protocol?
Is it the cache owner who decides what is correct?
I know at the last breakfast the owners said to list each human cache find as a “found” but are there any restrictions?
Suppose someone held an event and allowed “100 finds to everyone who attended”. What would stop that from happening?
I know of at least one team in the top ten who does not log events as finds at all.
While I realize that Geocaching.com would not have an events column if they did not want us to log them, it does seem rather odd that there are no other restrictions.
Does the tenth mile rule prevail? Meaning that all caches must be at least a tenth of a mile apart.
If this is clarified and I have claimed more caches then one should, deleting them is not an issue for me.
While this is not an attempt to pass judgement on event caches in any way, it is an attempt to get further input from others.
Does the cache owner log the cache as a find is another question – I mean they attended just like everyone else and attendance does seem to indicate a log. I have seen it done both ways.
And on that note this is Wzbt03 (or wizbit as some say ) giving the barrel a stir to see is the potion is clear or murky.

[Cathunter]

I also found this to be a murky topic. I log for attending the event. Any other hides should be able to be logged on their own page, but geocaching.com has ruled that temp caches are not allowed a page. I wish there was a better system for temporary caches, but the powers that be have yet to display any interest….

maybe after they get the server capacity up high enough so it can handle the present load……. but thats another topic.

[Ray]

This has been brought up in the past. What is allowed is determined by the cache owner. If you feel guilt for logging all that is allowed, then log what you are comfortable with within the cache owner’s limits. Some log no events at all.

[GeoPink]

OK… I’ll bite.

Back when I started caching and kept up with the main site forums I got the distinct feeling that while there were no hard and fast rules for event caches, there were some commonly held beliefs throughout the geocaching communtiy and common practices regarding event caches.

An event cache should be logged once,no matter how many caches are found at the event. The “cache” is the event. There are no temporary caches allowed on the site for a reason so why would we log them… anywhere? While some Traditional caches will offer a bonus cache that some will log as a separate find, that is a completely different story. A bonus is neither temporary nor an event.

I got excited when in a GC forum topic, the WGA campout showed up as the number 2 highest log total on the site. Wow! That was cool. Until you find out why. Fifty or so teams log a multitude of “finds” under one “cache”. Sorry, but the general feeling amongst most cachers nationally and internationally is that an event is the cache and you get to log it as one find. We did not look good as an organization and it was then that I actually felt somewhat embarassed to be a part of this group.

I realize I may in fact be in the minority here, but I know I am in the majority within the GC communtiy as a whole. True, it is, to a certain extent, up to ceratin areas and individuals how they will log thier finds and we all know its not about the numbers. Please don’t repeat the excuse about how “if you feel guilty then don’t log them all…” To me its not about personal guilt, its about a potential black eye for the WGA within the GC community. Hey, if its not about the numbers, then why do we insist on bucking what is common practice thoughout the remainder of the caching populace and pad our totals.

I believe that we as the Wisconsin Geocaching Association, should make an effort to work with the Geocaching communtiy as a whole and work towards adopting the practices of the Geocaching community in regards to event cache logs.

And, oh yeah, I realize that I am a newbie here; but this one’s been buggin’ me for awhile. If anyone has some commments that will contribute to a reasonable discussion about the why’s and why not’s, I am ready for some enlightenment. Otherwise, I believe we need to take my above thoughts and recommendation into serious consideration.

Thanks,
Jeff

– Team GeoPink
Co-conspirators to make the world a better place…

[wzbt03]

That is what I like about this forum – open opinions about subjects that some of us are unclear on.
I guess each of us will have to have our own method of dealing with event caches. I have gone in and deleted some and have left others like the ones for “Caching Through the Snow” where all the temporary caches met the criteria of a regular cache too.
Remember that a open discussion is a good thing even when opinions vary. While we have heard from one of the board members that I respect very much, it would be nice to hear what all of our elected mentors have to say on the subject.

[Ray]

here are some late thoughts I felt compelled to add.

If you used a GPSr to locate it, you should feel no guilt in logging it.

If there is a logbook or other means of confirming a find, you should feel no guilt in logging it.

Event caches are only caches where logging a find by the cache owner is generally considered acceptable.

If you are having fun playing the game then keep up whatever you are doing, the scores are only your milestones and their only significance is what you personnaly attach to them.

[kbraband]

I agree with Jeff. It’s enjoyable to read such a well-reasoned and courteous discussion such as this (which is the norm for the WGA discussion forums). As a board member, I’m reluctant to voice my opinion because I’m the first to admit that not many share my opinion speak up regarding stats and number of finds. But since Jeff asked, here goes. In a nutshell, there is too much emphasis on stats. (I don’t know how many finds I have because I don’t log them all under a single ID. I use “active2gether” when I hunt with my geocaching partner.) Having said that, I know that stats are important to many WGA members. With that in mind, if we can encourage people to attend WGA events and socialize with each other and get off their butts and do something in the great outdoors with their family or other loved ones, and if stats contribute to their enjoyment of this activity, then I think that’s fine with me. Heck, at our first event we gave everyone an extra “find” if they collected trash during their hunt. This is supposed to be fun. Stats make it more fun for some. I liken it to attending a parade. Some people get excited about how much candy they can collect from the various parade entries. Others simply like to enjoy the spectacle. There’s room for everyone, and the mix of characters is what makes it fun for all.

Note: I just realized an error in my message. We did not give an extra find for collecting trash at the first picnic event. We gave an extra ticket for the prize drawing.

[This message has been edited by kbraband (edited 03-01-2004).]

[GrouseTales]

Good topic!

I think there are several different types of “events”. Some groups have monthly meetings and create “event” pages for them. Here in WI, we have the ever so popular breakfast socials. There are also events that involve well placed temp caches. In see different ways of logging these different events.

For SOCIALS events, such as the breakfast events, I think it would only get ONE log. If you don’t want to log it, then don’t. It’s amazing how far people will drive if they can increase their “finds” 🙂 I’m not real familiar with the human geocache aspect at social events. I think that for social’s, one find should be the norm.

CACHING events: There are those events that are centered around caching. The past WGA picnics and campouts have been centered around actual caches placed for the event. Same thing with the “caching through the snow event”. Sure they are great way to socialize, but the majority of the people have been out caching.

I’ve attended all the WGA caching events, and a caching event in Iowa. I can tell you from first hand experience, ALL of these temp caches have equalled, or exceeded the quality of most regular caches. As such, I feel they are each worthy of being logged as a “find” on the cache event page. Most of these caches would easily get approved as a regular cache. These caches are not much different than any other cache your looking for, except, they are temporary, and may not contain log books.

Why not just make them regular caches? I think it would cause too much burden on GC.com, and the approvers. If the approvers had to now approve all the temps placed at an event, it would be a nightmare. Regular caches are expected to be permanent (as much as they can be). Also, when we ask a park manager for permission to hold a caching event for a day, they are under the assumption that it is for a day. If a group (WGA) left behind 25 caches it it’s wake for each event they held, I think the parks would stop giving permission. I think is an offering of good will on the group’s part to leave the park cleaner when they leave.

Do temps have to be 0.10 mile apart from each other? No, I think GC.com created that guideline so areas don’t become saturated with permanent caches. Because temps are only in a park for a day or weekend, they don’t cause the problems related with oversaturation. Looking back to past events, I can’t think of too many that were within 528′ of each other. One possible exception is the mothership/satellite concept cache. It may be hard to adher to the 528′ rule if a group was hosting an event in a smaller urban park.

Does the owner of the event cache get to determine how many caches a person can log for the event? Yes, the owner gets to determine how many caches a person can log. I agree with Jeff that if people logged a “find” for each person at a social event, GC.com would probably crack down on that practice.

There are those that feel a event is an event, and you should only get one “find” for attending, no matter how many temps you found. What does Jeremy Iryshe say? This is a quote from him regarding this issue

Jeremy Iryshe stated: I couldn’t give two hoots if someone wants to log an event cache twice. It’s their find count and there is no competition here. So if you find a cache at an event, knock yourself out.

My summary:
[*]caching events – log each cache found
[*]Social events – Only one “find”, (if that)

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“There are two kinds of hunting: ordinary hunting and grouse hunting.”
-Aldo Leopold, A sand county Almanac

Brian
WGA President
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by GrouseTales (edited 03-01-2004).]

[This message has been edited by GrouseTales (edited 03-01-2004).]

[Ms. WISearcher]

I would like to say that I feel that it is up to the cache “placer” as to the criteria they set for their particular event. I know that at our last event I shared that if people wanted to log each of their Human geocaches as a log that they could…but certainly didn’t need to if it didn’t sit well with them. I know for this event in particular there was more of a search to find these “caches” than for some easy regular caches that are out there. I left it up to the cacher to decide what they would like to do.

I know that it is an understanding of many that you can log your own event as a cache, but any other temp caches would not be logged. I know that some don’t log their events at all…some do…

I think that is the beauty of caching…that there ae so many ideas out there and that new twists to our activity come every day it seems. I like the idea of being flexible.

IMHO if Jeremy Irish doesn’t care…I say then that the individual cacher makes peace with their own decisions—

happy caching-
Ms. WISearcher

[OuttaHand]

My personal opinion on this is simple. If the answer to ALL of the following quesions is yes, then you log a find for EVERY cache:
1)Is it a cache (A hidden thing)?
2)Did you use a GPSr to find it?
3)Is it OK with the event host to post a find for every cache?

Given these criteria, you have the option of logging a find for every cache you do at the event, including a find for the event itself. Although the validity of an event meeting criteria #1 is iffy, the event is in a place which needs to be found.

I have been to two different events. I logged finds for each event itself; and for each of the caches I did at the events. I feel no guilt for that. Sure I like to watch my find count. But that’s not the main reason I attend a cache event. I like to put some faces with the names I see on cache logs and in these forums. I like to see how others seek out caches. etc. etc.

[Cathunter]

I didn’t think the question had anything to do with stats or guilt- it was seeking “official” policy on accepted practice. I’m really happy to see how many of the members replied with their thoughts. It’s these forums that help to guide us and make geocaching even greater than it would be otherwise.
What the rest of the geocaching world might be doing is interesting, but it does not mean I (or we) have to do it that way.

For the record, I would not have found ANY event caches without my GPSr. Especially the two times I tried to follow Trudy & The Beast.

[This message has been edited by Cathunter (edited 03-02-2004).]

[kbraband]

quote:

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Originally posted by arcangl7:
We did not look good as an organization and it was then that I actually felt somewhat embarassed to be a part of this group.

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I remembered that I wanted to respond to this part of arcangl7’s post. From discussions with geocachers around the country, from emails with Jeremy and Hydee at gc.com, and from fellow admin approvers, I know the WGA has a reputation as one of the strongest regional organizations out there. Our events are also widely respected as being fun, well-organized, and well-attended. No one should EVER feel embarassed to be part of the WGA. Can we get better? Of course. Are we trying harder to meet the needs of our members than most other geocaching organizations? I believe we are. Do other organizations look up to us? Definately.

[wzbt03]

I agree with Ken that the Wisconsin Geocaching Association is the envy of most. We have a lot of great things going and the website is one of the best.
I guess my intent was just to get some clarification on what should and should not be done.
It will remain unclear as the decision appears to belong to the individual cacher and the host of the event.
So my rule (I did say my rule ) will be formulated from all the input that was received:
1- If its just a social gathering I will log it once.
2- If I host one and I am at the event – I will log it as a find.
3- If there are temporary caches that require the use of my GPSr to find – I will log them.
4- If there are temporary caches that do not involve my GPSr I will participate in the spirit of the gathering but will not log them.

I guess all the input helped me decide what is best for me as I am sure others will reach their own conclusions.

[The Lil Otter]

I think why people in the normal geocaching forums are sometimes harsh upon temp hides at events is because they feel shorted by the fact that if they can’t attend they lose out on a ‘find’ or two or ten. Some people of this sport are such PURISTS that they actually ruin the fun for themselves or for others by their constantly picking apart what should always be a fun activity. I’ve never attended an event because of the caches.. but it is a great way to team up with some new faces and enjoy their company.. I am a solo hunter so this type of caching is so enjoyable to me.. I’m quite social by nature and really enjoy the idea of our events.. I’ve been to several states where their events were the same as ours.. with logging done the same.. The few ‘human caches’ done at the last breakfast were really an ice breaker.. I’ve never seen so much mingling.. it was fun to watch.

~The Lil Otter

[GeoPink]

Thank you to all who responded and shared thier thoughts. I opened up my own personal can of worms and you all politely picked one or two up and put them back in. My perspective was from a former religious conviction reading the main site forums and a limited local perspective having only attended one event. I’ve since given up on the main site forums and stuck with these. As Lil’ Otter said the folks on the GC forums are inteligent and well-meaning but they have a way of trivializing an otherwise fun pasttime. I now realize that some of that influence had shown through in my above post. (I do need to lighten up a bit sometimes… )
The good news is that I’ve been enlightened. This is truly an amazing event as I usually am not easily swayed in my beliefs and am just another stubborn German. The primary reason behind my prior convictions was ignorance. I see now that most cachers will “categorize” an event cache as a social gathering primarily (breakfasts) or a caching opportunity (Caching in the Snow). This distinction makes sense. I can see where you will want to get “credit” for the finds when you’ve been caching just as you would any other time. Thank you for helping me with this understanding.

As for the WGA, yes we are an envy of many. From my limited experience I’ve found this to be a wonderful group of folks and a most professional yet down to earth organization. The embarassment I saw was as a result of the GC forum members who had more forum posts than caches found. While intelligent and insightful, these folks need to enjoy the sport by participating and not concentrating on giving the play-by-play and color commentary on the side-lines. Thankfully I came to that personal realization several months ago on my own.

Please do not stop posting your ideas about this topic. I am always looking for input and “enlightenment”.

Thanks for everything!

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later,
Team GeoPink
Co-conspirators to make the world a better place…

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