Life span of a cache, just a few thoughts….

[GrouseTales]

When speaking with the NPS a few days ago, the lady asked me “how long to geocaches stay out there?” “Don’t they form trails to the cache?”

This got me thinking…how long should caches be left out there? Woundn’t it be wise for WGA members to voluntarily remove their caches after “X” amount of time?

Geocaching hasn’t implimented any time restrictions, but that day may come. After a cache has been in place for a while, it can start to have a negative impact on the land. There is a potential for volunteer trails to start forming to the cache. I’ve also noticed that the quality of the trinkets seems to degrade over time.

Keeping a cache in a certain spot also prevents other cachers from placing a cache in that same general area. By voluntarily removing a cache, it would allow the vegitation to grow back, and let someone else try a cache in that location.

There are many caches out there that have somewhat of a historical value. They may be some of the oldest caches, or the first cache that did this or first cache that did that. Some are true classics that are extremely unique.

I think the majority of caches are simple hides, and may not be too spectacular, at least as far as the cache itself.

So what I’m thinking…What if WGA members voluntarily placed a date on their cache page that the cache would be removed on. On that date, the cache owner could yank the cache. I would say a good time frame would be 1 year. Afterwhich, the cache owner would archive the cache, or if all is in great shape, maybe extend the date.

I think it would be VERY responsible for us as individuals and a group, to voluntarily set an expiration date for a cache. I think that park personal would feel some comfort to know a cache will only be there for a certain period of time.

How long should we keep these things out there?

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“There are two kinds of hunting: ordinary hunting and grouse hunting.”
-Aldo Leopold, A sand county Almanac

Brian
WGA Vice President
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by GrouseTales (edited 01-31-2004).]

[Cathunter]

I have always thought this a good idea.

Although I don’t know how to make it happen without the support of Mr. Irish, I have suggested developing a cache rating system that could be used to help determine how long a cache should be allowed to stay in place.
Each finder rates the hide when they log their find. (1 to 5 star rating, or something of that nature)
Individual votes need not be seen by the cache owner but after 3-4 finds have been logged, the cache owner can see the average of the votes submitted thus far.
Caches with a poor rating after a period of time should be removed.

Caches should me moved or removed to prevent trails from forming. In many cases, a 500 foot move would be all that is needed. Some caches have no noticeable impact over time.
A little observation will make a big difference, and in the long run will improve geocaching as a whole.

[This message has been edited by Cathunter (edited 01-31-2004).]

[Cheesehead Dave]

I’ve thought of this as well. But every time I think about archiving one of my older caches, there’s a sudden flurry of brand new cachers that seek them out.

“Gee, I’m a Tree” probably had more seekers last fall than in the rest of its lifetime.

For an admin, it would be useful to have a tool where you could see all the caches in your state sorted by time since last found. For caches that haven’t been hit in a few months, perhaps a note to the cache owner suggesting they archive the cache to free up the park or 528′ zone would be in order.

It wouldn’t be mandatory, and if the cache owner declined, there would be no further pressure to archive it (although another note could go out if it goes another few months without a find.)

That being said, say “buh-bye” to Jingle Bell Rock…

[This message has been edited by Cheesehead Dave (edited 01-31-2004).]

[Cathunter]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cheesehead Dave:
For an admin, it would be useful to have a tool where you could see all the caches in your state sorted by time since last found.

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The GSAK program referenced in another of todays threads does this quite nicely. I often use it to remind cache owners to check on their caches after a long period of no-finds.

[marc_54140]

A couple of more thoughts on cache deactivation.

What if the owner dies?

The owner is no longer active in geocaching?
What time limit to be considered unactive? Who does what when the owner has disappeared?

Owner moves from local area? I moved from Arizona – I archived physical caches, but left a virtual active.

Since virtuals are usually in an area where there is a lot of traffic anyways, should they be included in the process.

Marc

[sbukosky]

Cache police? Some caches have impact and some don’t. I would hope that experienced cachers would comment when the environment is being degraded. However, these cachers likely have found the cache early on and many newer cachers will not say anything but glowing reviews about any cache they are on.

Some caches have the sole intent to baffle the hunter and here is where damage can occur. Coupled with poor coordinates, an area can get trashed quickly. We do have tools to prevent this.

First are the hints. If no finds are logged and there are no hints, the cache should be archived if the owner does not give a useful hint. Each no find results in additional visits from the team which adds impact to the area. My philosophy has always been to hide a cache so the casual hiker won’t see it but the geocacher can find it. That means if you want to baffle the cachers by using a novel method of hiding a cache or waypoint, the means to find it should be included in the hints.

Second, it can be hard to get good coordinates initially. When finders can provide more accurate coordinates, we have the provision to post those when the log entry is made. I like to verify their accuracy with both Mapsource and USAPhotoMaps. Cache owners should be encouraged to use these programs to verify their coordinates. Demonstrating this would also make a good educational program for a general meetng!

Third, people are encouraged to log no finds. It is not a sign of being a newbie or lack of skill. I have many no finds and post them to allow the cache owner to determine if some maintenance is required and to possibly aid future visitors to the cache.

Finally, I think such things should be presented at every opportunity we have. Social events are great, but adding a little education program would show the governments that we are making an effort to get the word out and discipline outselves.

[Ray]

The question of virtuals got me to thinking. I checked the virtuals Trudy & I have logged and realized that we couldn’t remember over half of these. Some of the most memorable we because they were lame. Some could be scored without stopping the car, some offered worthless trivia. Then on the other hand we have found some virtuals that are very interesting and we are pleased that we took the time to visit these. “Moscow, we have a problem”, “The Ephraim wetlands preserve”, “The chapel dedicated to St. Joan of Arc”, “A Banner Day”, “Lime Kiln Adventure #1”, “Old Testament Name Buried in Calvary”, “In Memory of Bob”, “The beginnings of a Tradition”, “Cache in Beloit”, and “Temptations” all fit this latter group. My personal opinion is that it would be a shame to archive these.

I would suggest that when a marker is selected at the roadside or in a cemetary, it needs to be of great enough significance to a wide variety of people to pass the test. Please don’t take me to your uncle Fred’s grave and expect me to get excited about it. If you offer me a virtual, am I going to remember it a year from now? Or, will it be more fodder for the argument supporting the virtual moratorium? If you suspect that your virtual is only of interest to pad a cacher’s count then don’t place it or if you have placed it, archive it now and save me some gas.
~tb

[Mama Fishcacher]

quote:

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Originally posted by GrouseTales:
“Don’t they form trails to the cache?”

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Yep they do. Anytime you have walking on the same path over and over, you WILL form a trail. Even if it’s gravel. (After time, the larger rocks are pushed aside or broken down.)

quote:

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I would say a good time frame would be 1 year. After which, the cache owner would archive the cache, or if all is in great shape, maybe extend the date.

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I think this is a *wonderful* idea. Letting the land have some *time off* from activity would allow it a chance to regenerate. But if the cache is archived, would there then be a way to make sure nobody else places a cache in the same spot so the land would truly get that time off to regenerate?

I think overall, the responsibility belongs to the cache owner. That is the one and only person who saw the area before activity to the cache and can judge the amount of possible deterioration the area has had. I think placing a cache is a huge responsibility to make sure things are legal and safe for the cachers, the area it is in, and the cache itself.

~mama fishcacher

[GrouseTales]

When I place my next cache, I plan on posting an voluntary expiration in the narrative. Something like:

*** To reduce potential impact to the land, this cache will be removed on or around 2/1/05. If you are viewing this cache page after this date, please email me to check it’s status ***

If I forget the expiration date has arrived, hopefully someone will email me.

I think a mandatory expiration date is pretty extreme, unless Groundspeak wants to determine who will own the archived cache container. Once a cache is archived, it is removed from the internet, but the container may be forgotten in the woods.

It would be nice if Groundspeak had a policy about local organizations adopting or removing abandoned caches. I would feel very uncomfortable removing a cache unless I had the consent of the owner or Groundspeak.

If caches were automatically archived after a certain date, I think we end up with tons of abandoned caches out there. I know we have many cache owners that have become inactive and probably abandonded their caches. If the cacher isn’t active, what are the odds they can be contacted to remove the container? Somebody should step in and remove the Geotrash container

marc_54140 asked:

quote:

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What if the owner dies?

The owner is no longer active in geocaching?
What time limit to be considered unactive? Who does what when the owner has disappeared

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If we know a cacher has passed away or no longer wishes to become active, Groundspeak can help someone adopt a cache. They can tranfer the cache into your account if you adopt it. If the person is just inactive, you can contact them and let them know you are willing to adopt the cache. The key is knowing the status of the owner.

I think cache owners should also leave notes on the cache page when needed. If someone posts that the camera is full. Then the owner should post a note they will retrieve the camera asap. If a bunch of cachers have no-finds, then the cache owner should check the cache, AND, leave a note that the cache is fine, or will be fixed or whatever the case is. I know many cache owners leave notes responding to problems with the cache, and it shows they haven’t abandoned the cache.

As an Approver, I don’t need the hassles of mandatory expiration dates. I don’t want to be a cache nazi or cache police. I just think it would be a good idea to volutarily remove the cache after a while.

[greyhounder]

This all means that I really have to get to work and find all those caches before they get archived or moved. But in general, I think keeping the environment in mind is a really good idea. It also allows new caches to be placed, so those or you will a bazillion finds have new places to go!

Bec

[The Snail]

Speaking as a relative newcomer, I support the one year limit. Many of my finds have trails leading directly towards the cache, or the surrounding area is trampled to dust. Geocaching is supposed to be an enviromentally low impact hobby.

On the other hand its saddens me to see a cache archived if I have not logged it yet. I feel as though I missed out on something.

[Ray]

The number of caches in our forests is mushrooming. It has recently grown past 1500 active caches in the state. I have no fear that we will ever run out of caches. The problem is when caches become geotrash. I would like to see Groundspeak provide WGA with a n activity report similar to a financial aging report. If a cache hasn’t been found within the past 3 or 6 or 12 months (you pick the number) let the owner justify it’s existance. If the owner does not, I see nothing wrong with removing it and archiving it as there is now evidence that it has been abandoned.

The problem of geotrails being formed to a cache is somwhat self-limiting. many caches are being placed there the trafic to that cache is rather low impact and diminishes as the frequency of visits drops off. Cachers tend to go after the newer caches. in time a cache may see no more than a few cachers in a month. Take a look at the breaks in activity for caches that are more than a year old. Some will go a few months between visits. I don’t see environmental impact about a cache as an overwhelming problem.

I will admit that there are occasional caches that draw enough traffic to cause problems. Scarabaeidae Deltochilum… comes to mind. Cachers have an obligation to point this out. and cache owners have an obligation to either move the cache or inactivate it for a time to rest the environment.

I am definately not in favor of automatic archival, nor do I favor forced archival. I think this should be in the hands of the cache owner unless we note that it has been abandoned.

JMHO ~tb

[Green Bay Paddlers]

WOW!!! 100% agree. Although we are new to the hobby (started a year ago) and we haven’t placed any caches yet (we have 5 ready to be placed just sitting in our basement) I agree with a voluntary one year time limit on caches.

It’s the issue of creating trails and causing erosion that I am concerned with. We have some spots in mind for our caches. We plan to place them and then yank them after one year.

We also offer our services to the WGA to go out and pull abandoned caches out of the wilderness. We would even mail them back to the owners if addresses are provided.

Great stuff – GREAT CONSERVATION!!!!

Jeff

[GeoPink]

My question would be this: What is so special about the one year limit? Why not two or three or five or 6 months?

Each cache is different in its own way. Each cache will have a large number of visitors when it is young. This will taper off as the cache matures and there will then be a rather steady amount of visits to the cache. Obviously there will be examples of extremes one way or another where a cache recieves absolutely no visitors for a long time or will recieve constant visitors for extended periods of time. This is where cache owner maitenance comes in. If the hide is such that it will naturaly not be visited often then the one year thing makes no sense. The converse being that if the cache is particularily appealing, the cache may have a hundred visitors in a couple of months.

My point is two-fold.
1) Each cache is different, this being the case one cannot assign an arbitrary time stamp for archival, voluntary or not. If after this time period the cache owner still has the option of keeping the cache or archiving the cache as has been suggested, then see #2.
2) What you are sugesting is that the cache owner check on his/her cache on a regular basis and at the “one year” point to determine what, if any, environmental impact his/her cache may have had. You are simply telling us to maintain our caches. This is already the responsibilty of every cache owner. Who better than the owner to know at what time periods thier cache will require maintenance or eventually archival.

The idea of a one year voluntary end date is an unnecessary and redundant layer of “regulation”. Why don’t we instead focus on educating cache owners, both new and experienced, on environmental impact, regular cache maintenance, working with park authorities, and overall good caching ethics. This will go much farther to enhance the enjoyment and positive expansion of the sport for all cachers.

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later,
Team GeoPink
Co-conspirators to make the world a better place

[The Lil Otter]

These types of topics scare the heck out of me.. I begin to wonder where it is headed or what new clobbering/policing will come of this sport..

As most know.. I’ve done over a 1000 caches in Wisconsin alone.. traveling throughout our state on my geo-adventures.. if it was all about gathering numbers/counts.. I’d have not put on 1800 miles or so each trip to just gather 40 caches in the north woods.. (I’d head to/focus only on Minn/StPaul/Milw/Chicago/etc).. The point is – I’ve not done one negative log.. if I
want to get a taste of an area I thank others for showing it off…. I don’t see it as wasting gas or my time.. it’s all part of the day’s adventures.

I keep pushing for mentoring in private emails and would hate to see public bashing/rating/archiving etc on a cache that seems of little value to some. I’ve taken some comments here personally.. as I bet others also have.. so if I feel offended or having to justify my own caches.. ask yourself how our newer members must feel like??

I doubt that anyone that places a cache thinks that they are setting it out to ‘waste’ someone’s time or gas etc.. but to actually bring others into their life/mood/memory/excitment within the sport.. so if visiting my grandfather’s grave or stopping by a painting on the side of a barn bothers you.. just don’t do it… I’ve walked away from many caches that just don’t sit right with me.. but others in their logs just rave about it. So it’s all about personal opinions and life views.

To get back on the topic.. I feel that if a cache is making a vol. trail that impacts the land or if the hints are not clear and the surrounding area is getting trashed up from frustrated searchers.. those things should be handled and addressed.

~The Lil Otter

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