Permission

[odysseyuwrf]

As a new cacher who is trying to put out some caches, I have a question. I understand that if a cache is placed on private property, or managed lands, you need permission. But what about parking lots, park and rides, road barricades/signs, etc?

What kinds of placements require permission before placing?

I have also noted on some threads that people place caches without permission, and then deal with it later. I don’t want to go down that road, so any help or advice would be appreciated.

[jerrys dad]

As long as it is in the public right of way you are good to go. A parking lot, I personally ask permission from the store etc.

[-cheeto-]

FYI – An almost guaranteed way to get your newly submitted cache temporarily disabled and not published is to place the cache in a parking lot or an area that looks like a parking lot and the cache page does not have explicit permissions stated. I have some experience and have read that “canned” message a few times…

[gotta run]

@odysseyuwrf wrote:

What kinds of placements require permission before placing?

Here is another thread on this topic:

http://wi-geocaching.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6920&highlight=permission+form

There is also a “generic” permission form here:

http://wi-geocaching.com/modules.php?name=Wiki&pagename=Hiding%20A%20Cache

Under “General cache hiding rules.”

In theory, every cache placement requires permission because all land belongs to someone or some entity. On lands that the public has a right to be on freely, you can also argue that you have no right to leave something there permanently. Groundspeak guidelines also state “By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.”

In practice, 99.9999% percent of cache placements are made under the theory of “it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission,” and that percentage is probably low.

With that said, you can never go wrong with asking for explicit permission. The worst thing that happens is they say “no.” The upside is that everything is above-board and you avoid post-placement problems.

Hypothetically speaking 😉 as long as a cache does not show up as on private property on whatever magical maps the reviewers use, it’s not an issue. Most roadside right-of-way caches also get published, even though many of them are questionably placed.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[odysseyuwrf]

I’ve been trying to get permission to put some caches on the Newton Blackmour Trail, but it seems like it’s not going to happen. Some concerns about poison ivy and other plants. Grrr, frustrating.

[gotta run]

@odysseyuwrf wrote:

I’ve been trying to get permission to put some caches on the Newton Blackmour Trail, but it seems like it’s not going to happen. Some concerns about poison ivy and other plants. Grrr, frustrating.

Has the regulating agency of that changed from the DNR? The last time we looked into the trail we were told (by a gc reviewer) that the trail was managed by the DNR, so you only need a DNR notifcation form. Not sure who you’re working with.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[odysseyuwrf]

@gotta run wrote:

@odysseyuwrf wrote:

I’ve been trying to get permission to put some caches on the Newton Blackmour Trail, but it seems like it’s not going to happen. Some concerns about poison ivy and other plants. Grrr, frustrating.

Has the regulating agency of that changed from the DNR? The last time we looked into the trail we were told (by a gc reviewer) that the trail was managed by the DNR, so you only need a DNR notifcation form. Not sure who you’re working with.

The trail signs all point that the trail is being maintained by the Outagamie Parks Dept. I contacted them and the Director got back to me with his concerns.

[gotta run]

@odysseyuwrf wrote:

The trail signs all point that the trail is being maintained by the Outagamie Parks Dept. I contacted them and the Director got back to me with his concerns.

Well, see there’s your problem right there…probably a thousand caches in land maintained by Outagamie Parks that they don’t know about.

Anyhoo, check with WisKid on this one. When we put our cache out, we were told it was still DNR, very much like how the Mountain-Bay trail is DNR even though individual sections are maintained by local and/or county parks departments. So we did the the DNR form and everything is copacetic.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[cheezehead]

@jerrys dad wrote:

As long as it is in the public right of way you are good to go. A parking lot, I personally ask permission from the store etc.

THIS is not always TRUE!!! Technically, your front lawn could be a public right-away, and the definition changes from municipality to municipality.
My dad worked for the WI DOT for 30-something years, and one of his jobs was enforcing the right-way. For instance garage sale and “vote for” signs are not legal, but very rarely enforced.

[furfool]

I haven’t looked up the statute, but a neighbor was telling me that we technically don’t own the property to the side walk. The city owns something like 1-2 feet on the side that our house is on. I wouldn’t put it past them. Sorry for getting off track here.

[odysseyuwrf]

@gotta run wrote:

@odysseyuwrf wrote:

The trail signs all point that the trail is being maintained by the Outagamie Parks Dept. I contacted them and the Director got back to me with his concerns.

Well, see there’s your problem right there…probably a thousand caches in land maintained by Outagamie Parks that they don’t know about.

Anyhoo, check with WisKid on this one. When we put our cache out, we were told it was still DNR, very much like how the Mountain-Bay trail is DNR even though individual sections are maintained by local and/or county parks departments. So we did the the DNR form and everything is copacetic.

I have e-mailed Wis Kid and we’ll see what the verdict is. Thanks for the suggestion.

[odysseyuwrf]

Here is the e-mail that I got from Wis Kid about getting permission for the trail:

“Well, there are already many other caches along the trail. The problem is that the DNR contracts with the county parks departments to manage the trail, so they get the forms from you. Once you submit the forms, you can list the cache, but they might contact you later and ask you to remove it. My thoughts are that this is might be a good time to teach them about geocachers, and how we normally consider poisonous plants, thickets, thorns, swamps, marshes, cliffs, and other hazards to be fun challenges to overcome. If he is worried about liability, introduce him to Wisconsin Statute 895.525, which states that no one participating in a recreational activity cannot accuse a property owner of negligence when the property is made available to the general public. You might also want to mention the terrain rating system and the cache attributes available to indicate hazards such as poisonous plants.

Or, you could just send in the form and hope.”

I’m certain he meant to say that no one can accuse them of negligence.

I mentioned a couple of these things in the e-mails I sent, but I think I might just send in the forms and hope for the best. The trail is to nice to not put some caches out there, even if they end up getting archived. Thoughts?

[gotta run]

If the county parks guy you talked to gets a DNR form, particularly post-placement, he/she will likely be annoyed and feel like you are making an end run.

At this point you could go back to the county parks person and mention the many approved caches on other rails-to-trails (in general–not saying “well, there are dozens of other caches already along this trail,” which would probably cause more problems), along with some of WisKid’s verbiage. I would probably stick with the postive because if you start mentioning statues and stuff he might just toss the form off to the nearest department attorney and then you’re pretty much DOA.

Either way you’ll have to circle back to the DNR but I think you need to start with the parks person first, otherwise it’s like asking your dad for permission after mom said no, which is always a bad idea when they both find out.

Anyone else, feel free to chime in here….

On the Left Side of the Road...

[odysseyuwrf]

I came to the conclusion last night that this is pretty much a dead issue for me right now. I am still trying to work on getting some caches further down the line on the Duck Creek part of the trail. I thought it over and I really don’t want to become a pest to the Parks guy, and create any issues for existing caches or for anyone who tries to put them out in the future.

Maybe someone else will have better luck getting caches on the trail. For now, time to focus on different areas. I have several cache containers laying around and the wife wants them out of the house. 🙂

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