Puzzle Caching and Tours

[djwini]

i wasn’t going to post a reply but after i walked away i got to thinking. i was contacted for a hint about my puzzle cache and gladly gave the hint i usually send out. i like for people to find my caches. i made it a puzzle just to give it a little extra twist instead of just walking out to a box. if they want to hunt in a group, more power to them. if they are anything like me, most of them will have solved most of the puzzles anyway. the 10 puzzle solved entry fee is just that, a way to get most of them to look at the puzzles.
now maybe every cache owner doesn’t feel like me. in fact, i’m sure of it. there was a puzzle cache i was attempting to solve that i wrote the owner for help on twice. he was very nice but he would not give me any help. it was like he just did not want that puzzle to be solved with help. i put it on my ignore list. there are too many other caches out there to waste my time on something that causes me frustration. give me a nice walk with a nice box and some trinkets to find any day!

[Lostby7]

Personally I have several puzzles (several of which I have archived) which are easy. They are meant to be easy. If tours were to pass through I’d surely welcome the traffic, but I also have a few puzzles that I feel are clever and unique; those puzzles are the ones which I’d like to have logged by only those who have done the work and can fully appreciate my hides….which are which? There is no way for people to know which puzzles are dear to my heart and I understand that.

As I said I allow latitude in the way in which people play the game. People can play the way they wish and a little disappointment about the way in which someone has come to log my cherished puzzle caches isn’t going to kill me.

[Team Hemisphere Dancer]

First S|S, Thank you for the offer. I personally believe that it would be beneficial to the entire caching community if we all worked together to raise the quality of the caches that we have in the Valley. That is quality for all ages and all styles of caches. I will also be re-tooling or archiving some old caches soon to raise the quality of the caches that I have out there. But it will take more than you or I to do it any justice.

I, in no way meant that we need to ban puzzles or re arrange them to make room for traditional’s. My statement was mainly that I do not know where to go with traditional’s anymore with all the unsolved puzzles that I have out there.

With my daughters current health situation I do not have the time to sit around and work on them. I would rather get out of the house and look. Usually it is spur of the moment when we do. As a general practice I do not keep puzzles loaded in the GPSr. So when I do go find puzzles it is just that. I plan it out hand enter coords into the GPS and go specifically for them. It may be only 2 it may be 10 it all depends how many in the area I have solved. So when I post that I am out finding puzzles that is exactly what I am doing.

Don’t even get me started on the SWAG issue but that is another thread probably followed by Miata’s dead horse gif. I completely agree with you.

[marc_54140]

@djwini wrote:

there was a puzzle cache i was attempting to solve that i wrote the owner for help on twice. he was very nice but he would not give me any help. it was like he just did not want that puzzle to be solved with help.

Now that seems strange. I would have said any owner of a puzzle would offer help.

(However, I know one local who quite willing to give hints – in the form of another puzzle! Hmmm? That took some adjustment on my part.)

This is an example of where contacting other cachers for help in solving it would apply.

[TyeDyeSkyGuy]

@marc_54140 wrote:

@djwini wrote:

there was a puzzle cache i was attempting to solve that i wrote the owner for help on twice. he was very nice but he would not give me any help. it was like he just did not want that puzzle to be solved with help.

Now that seems strange. I would have said any owner of a puzzle would offer help.

(However, I know one local who quite willing to give hints – in the form of another puzzle! Hmmm? That took some adjustment on my part.)

This is an example of where contacting other cachers for help in solving it would apply.

…then there are those cachers that just feel free to hand out solutions to puzzles that aren’t theirs. That’s what really bothers me. Anyone who knows me or my puzzles, knows I like getting contacted about them, and am more than willing to help. I’ve also been known to just give out my puzzle coords to someone that’s looking to hide a cache in the area. So long as they don’t go log the puzzle cache without solving it.

[gotta run]

@tyedyeskyguy wrote:

…then there are those cachers that just feel free to hand out solutions to puzzles that aren’t theirs.

That’s the whole point of s|s’s original post, and it’s exactly what a Puzzle Cache Tour does. Sure, you have to solve a few to be part of the tour, but you get the goods on a whole bunch you had no hand in solving. And again, that’s much different than putting some heads together for a true collaboration.

So, s|s’s issue was not to encourage “handing out coordinates” through a tour because it runs counter to the spirit of the game, as well as the fact that it will tork off people (and I believe it’s a substantial majority) who do take genuine and justifiable offense having their hard work short-cut.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[TyeDyeSkyGuy]

@gotta run wrote:

@tyedyeskyguy wrote:

…then there are those cachers that just feel free to hand out solutions to puzzles that aren’t theirs.

That’s the whole point of s|s’s original post, and it’s exactly what a Puzzle Cache Tour does. Sure, you have to solve a few to be part of the tour, but you get the goods on a whole bunch you had no hand in solving. And again, that’s much different than putting some heads together for a true collaboration.

So, s|s’s issue was not to encourage “handing out coordinates” through a tour because it runs counter to the spirit of the game, as well as the fact that it will tork off people (and I believe it’s a substantial majority) who do take genuine and justifiable offense having their hard work short-cut.

I understand what S|S’s issue is. I’ve run into it myself before. And, this is another case of me sitting on the fence and seeing both sides.

As a puzzle creator, especially those ones I’ve put mega time effort and sometimes money into, It bugs me a lot to just have my coords handed out to individuals.

However, after going through earlier this season, exactly what is being proposed here, I have given this issue a lot of thought and concluded that if a group wants to get together and do a puzzle tour, I’m fine with it. As long as those people on the tour have put forth some effort to solve the puzzles.

For instance. If mark fills just one car, and everyone in that car has solved 10 puzzles, thats 40 puzzles. Now, my guess would be that there are some overlaps here. I’m sure some people picked the same puzzles to solve. I would hope that these are the puzzles they all go after first. Then, if there is time left, they can hunt ones that were worked on by all, but not necessarily solved by all.

In the case that someone in the group is going out to grab one that they never even looked at, I would hope that the others in the group would at the very least, let them in on the puzzle and it’s intricacies.

In the end, I’m not the cache police. What cachers do and how they do it is not going to change because I want them to. There are going to be people who give things away, and there are going to be people that just won’t go get a cache unless they did all the work themselves. Whichever the case is, my best hope is that cachers at least give credit where credit is due. If you had help with a puzzle, say so in your log. If you went with a group, say so in your log. If you broke my puzzle, please report it. I’m not going to charge you for it. But I might make you help me fix and replace it. 😉 You know who you are. 😀

[gotta run]

@tyedyeskyguy wrote:

In the end, I’m not the cache police.

That’s what we need! Here’s my suggestion…

On the Left Side of the Road...

[-cheeto-]

In the case that someone in the group is going out to grab one that they never even looked at, I would hope that the others in the group would at the very least, let them in on the puzzle and it’s intricacies.

In the end, I’m not the cache police. What cachers do and how they do it is not going to change because I want them to. There are going to be people who give things away, and there are going to be people that just won’t go get a cache unless they did all the work themselves. Whichever the case is, my best hope is that cachers at least give credit where credit is due. If you had help with a puzzle, say so in your log. If you went with a group, say so in your log. If you broke my puzzle, please report it.

I love this response. It’s probably some of the best common sense I have seen on this thread to date. 8)

And I could add… “If you phoned a friend, say so in your log”.

This response is about showing the cache owner respect which is crticial to the future of geocaching. Without cache owners wanting to place quality caches (puzzle or otherwise) and wanting to maintain those already placed, you don’t have much to go hunt now do you?

Everyone will probably agree to disagree on the main topic of this thread (puzzle cache tours) but I bet you everyone agree’s that showing the cache owner a bit of respect can go a long way!

Even if you admit you did not solve the puzzle, giving feedback on the puzzle (did you like it, was it ingeniously creative??, did you loathe it?) or feedback on the hide or SOMETHING, or ANYTHING will encourage the cache owner to continue to better that cache or make new ones. This get’s back to one of Alex’s original comments made. PLEASE log your opinions. Positive or negative.

And if you found way too many puzzle caches today because you were on a tour and you cannot remember my cache when you are logging then maybe (just maybe) you should take a step back and examine what makes geocaching fun. (or maybe I should stop placing caches…)

Shane

[marc_54140]

From my point of view, puzzle caches are meant to be solved and found. But there is no necessity for each and every cacher to solve the entire puzzle. If a couple of cachers get together and pool ideas to come up with the final solution, that’s fine.

Some puzzle almost demand cooperation. My Carol for Papr Dolls is an example. It involves a lot of misinformation, false leads, dead ends, you name it. So having several, if not more, people work on it together is something I expect.

And so I believe this expectation applies to any hard puzzle anywhere.

How much solving does each cacher contribute? That is a question with no black and white answer.

A simple example would be my commenting to ‘George’ that the Hall of Infamy cache appears to involve famous sports people, but I can not see any connection. George responses by saying the solution involves X. So, he has figured out the solution. Then either one, or both, of us work out the numbers.

Also, do not forget that a lot of puzzle caches involve going to the posted coordinates, collect some info, and work out the final. A WSQ cache is a good example of this. I have done a number of these with other cachers. We generally spread out, and start looking for the needed info; ultimately one of us find it. We congregate, work out the math, then head for the final. That’s called cooperation.

[gotta run]

@marc_54140 wrote:

If a couple of cachers get together and pool ideas to come up with the final solution, that’s fine.

Yes, agreed. But this is a LOT different from swapping solved-coordinate sheets, which is what s|s’s original concern about this tour was.

@marc_54140 wrote:

Also, do not forget that a lot of puzzle caches involve going to the posted coordinates, collect some info, and work out the final.

Agreed, and again a lot different from, “Here are the 10 puzzles I’ve solved, now where are the 40 solutions I get in return?”

On a related note, about the complaint in this thread (and others) that there are no good places left to put trads because there are too many puzzles out there, I see several new trads have popped up right in the middle of Puzzleville (aka Appleton), and we put out three trads this past week.

So apparently all the spots in the world haven’t been claimed yet.

And it’s also a great lesson in free market economics–consumers demand, the market responds. It all works out given time and absent of any artificial meddling…

On the Left Side of the Road...

[marc_54140]

@gotta run wrote:

@tyedyeskyguy wrote:

…then there are those cachers that just feel free to hand out solutions to puzzles that aren’t theirs.

That’s the whole point of s|s’s original post, and it’s exactly what a Puzzle Cache Tour does..

No, that’s not what a Puzzle Cache Tour is about.

The primary purpose of a Tour is to get together with some other cachers, and travel to a distance city to hunt caches. It’s an opportunity to spend time together. And when actually hunting the cache, increase the likelihood of it being found because there are more sets of eyes hunting it.

In this instance, I am planning to concentrate on puzzle caches. There is an ‘entry fee’ to be make sure no one is along for a free ride.

So, one person solves 10, and gets 30 free? No.

As some mentioned earlier, the odds are each person will probably be solving some of the same – perhaps easier – puzzles. Where do the others come in?

Some will be the collecting information type. One in particular I plan on is WSQ Mount Calvary. (I think I have the right name). It is a 9 part multi thru a large cemetery, and it highlights some spectacular monuments. I have done this one already, but I believe it is something to show others.

Any others? I do not know at this point, since it depends on who comes on the tour, and what they have worked on.

[marc_54140]

“And it’s also a great lesson in free market economics–consumers demand, the market responds.”

So all the agitation I have created is good for something after all?

I was sorry to see Peach’s There and Back Again disappear so fast. That is one cache I would have like to done just because of the subject.

[gotta run]

@marc_54140 wrote:

So, one person solves 10, and gets 30 free? No.

How can you possibly make that case, Marc? The “entry fee” idea alone just confirms the fact that you get more out of this endeavor than you put into it. I solve 10, I get the solutions to 30, 40, 50, whatever. All those extra ones are the freebies. No matter how you slice this semantically, the fact remains that people are along to hunt some puzzles that they did not personally solve.

And we’re not talking about puzzles that requires on-site solution. Your original invitation stated “Each participant must present solutions to 10 puzzles.” That is present solutions. As in, “here you go, here are my 10 to contribute.” Not, “here are the 10 I’d like us to work on as a group.”

Bottom line is, there are those that feel this is fine, and there are those that feel it’s a cheap way out. Obviously I fall in the latter category but you don’t, and those are differing opinions. But the tour, as originally and continually described, is about “tour” (swap puzzle solves, spend some time together, have fun) rather than “collaborate on solves.”

On the Left Side of the Road...

[TyeDyeSkyGuy]

@marc_54140 wrote:

@gotta run wrote:

@tyedyeskyguy wrote:

…then there are those cachers that just feel free to hand out solutions to puzzles that aren’t theirs.

That’s the whole point of s|s’s original post, and it’s exactly what a Puzzle Cache Tour does..

No, that’s not what a Puzzle Cache Tour is about.

The primary purpose of a Tour is to get together with some other cachers, and travel to a distance city to hunt caches. It’s an opportunity to spend time together. And when actually hunting the cache, increase the likelihood of it being found because there are more sets of eyes hunting it.

In this instance, I am planning to concentrate on puzzle caches. There is an ‘entry fee’ to be make sure no one is along for a free ride.

So, one person solves 10, and gets 30 free? No.

As some mentioned earlier, the odds are each person will probably be solving some of the same – perhaps easier – puzzles. Where do the others come in?

Some will be the collecting information type. One in particular I plan on is WSQ Mount Calvary. (I think I have the right name). It is a 9 part multi thru a large cemetery, and it highlights some spectacular monuments. I have done this one already, but I believe it is something to show others.

Any others? I do not know at this point, since it depends on who comes on the tour, and what they have worked on.

In this quote, I was not speaking of puzzle tours. I was speaking of cachers who are asked for help on a puzzle by another cacher, only to be handed the answer, not a clue, j2bc.

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