This topic contains 41 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
Alex, I think I understand what you’re trying to get across here but I am uncomfortable with your characterization of my representing the “purest intent of the sport.” While I disagree with certain caching behavior, I’ve tried to make it clear that it is a disgreement of respect rather than ethics. There is nothing unethical about making a GPX file of dozens of puzzle caches freely available for the asking, I just happen to think it’s disrespectful. However, I admit that I’m in the minority on this point. And even if I weren’t, would it matter? No.
Our decision to archive various puzzle caches is also not related to just one individual or one episode. Again, that’s why I started the poll a while back. The tribe has spoken–logging without solving is OK. So, as Mrs. gotta run said, “What’s the point of having a puzzle?” A very good point indeed. And since we were also told that if this bothered us, we should reevaluate our priorities, we did. There is no vindictive motivation in our decision. Just an adaptation to reality, plain and simple.
In other words, I argued the point, I lost, I’m over it. From now on if I don’t want a cache to be a stop on the tour, we’ll put it somewhere that the tour bus doesn’t stop.
And more important, by doing so we hopefully will create a better, more rewarding final cache experience in the process. After all, a key reason that puzzle finals make such tempting tour bus targets is that they tend to be T 1.5. Make them a T4 or 5, and you can’t get the bus there, plus hopefully it’s more rewarding than finding a half-camoed bison tube hanging on a rusty wire in a cedar tree.
On the Left Side of the Road...@Team Black-Cat wrote:
Nicely worded Alex. I think this post, above all the others, conveys your feeling very well. But….
I have to take exception to one, single line.I am saddened by the knowledge that these destructive practices were not acknowledged by a body we elected to monitor the sport in Wisconsin.
Where is it said that the WGA as an organization, or the WGA board is expected to “monitor the sport”? I did not become a board member to monitor the playground.
I will publicly state that I don’t particulary care for the sharing of puzzle or multi-cache coordinates. But, that is just me as an individual and not as a board member.
Not to steal the thread, and feel free to move this or start a new one, but I disagree 100%. According to my interpretation of the by-laws the board is responsible for disciplinary actions when those “actions are deemed to run counter to the best interests of the WGA”. I would consider freely giving out final coordinates to run counter to the interests of the WGA as being unethical (although not technically against the “stated” rules given to us by the head frog(s) at Groundspeak).
Article IX: Disciplinary Action
As determined by the Board, any member whose actions are deemed to run counter to the best interests of the WGA shall be subject to disciplinary action. Any action taken shall be with a two-thirds vote of the Board. Disciplinary actions that may be taken include removal from the Board or the revocation of membership.Should the Board feel that disciplinary action is necessary, the Board will schedule a vote and contact the member to be disciplined to ensure that the member can have an opportunity to speak in his or her defense if he or she so chooses. There is no appeal process.
I believe that article is refering to WGA Board members only…
http://www.wi-geocaching.com/modules.php?name=Wiki&pagename=BylawsRegarless of that, I think Article II best explains the “best interest” of the WGA. Please read those four bulleted lines. The WGA does not exist to govern gameplay.
These are my opinions only, and may not reflect those of the WGA Board Of Directors.
@Team Black-Cat wrote:
I believe that article is refering to WGA Board members only…
http://www.wi-geocaching.com/modules.php?name=Wiki&pagename=BylawsI interpret it a little differently, considering it says “any member”. “Article III: Membership” on the same page discusses general membership, therefore I assumed member refers to general members and Board referes to the Board as a collective body. Considering a Board member is also a general member, they could be disciplined under the same rules as a general member (because they’re both members). I’d be a little surprised if there wasn’t a policy covering the misconduct of general members.
Sorry… I was editing my last post when you were posting. Read the addition.
You may be right. I may be reading Article IX incorrectly. If so, Mia culpa.
Maybe it’s just me, but it does seem like there are a lot of posts in the few “adoption” threads that could be moved to one central thread for discussing/debating the issue.
I wish a lot of this dialogue was not buried in what are seemingly uninteresting (and perhaps unread) threads. (no offense meant dave…)
I’ve said this to my fellow board members and I will say it here publicly. Perhaps it is up to the WGA members as a group to identify what is fair play and respectful social interaction. While I would have liked to see the board take a position on this and I emphasize with everyone who’s emailing me, it really is up to all of us to take a position on this.
Here is what we have right now…We have an informal WGA forum poll that tells us most people either sit on the fence (I read: don’t care or don’t want to be involved) OR think that it’s okay to find a puzzle cache by any possible means, including being given the coordinates.
We have a lack of formal rules or regulations in the game (as played on geocaching.com) pertaining to this.
We have cache owners who include the difficulty of a puzzle in the cache difficulty rating and who believe that solving the puzzle is part of the experience and part of the challenge of the cache they placed, not an optional component that can be bypassed if chosen.
Some are arguing over ethics. If you believe you are breaking a rule in a game is that not unethical? Are we not taught to play games by the rules? However, if you do not believe this to be a rule of the game, then no rules are being broken.
But remember, this issue is also about respect. Regardless of who’s right, who’s wrong. Who’s following rules, who’s breaking rules. We have people who know “which side of the fence” you may sit on and are provokingly disrespecting you in our group’s forums and in some cache logs. And their defense? It’s not a rule of the game. How can this be disrespectful?
Here on our website we interact as a community. We socialize at events. This is a social hobby. We do have interaction with other humans. We should respect them in what we say and do even if we don’t see things the same way as them.
It would be nice if the rules of this game were laid out in black and white and everyone followed them. It would be even nicer if everyone would respect each other and have fun.
It’s in my signature but I will add that this is not the boards position or opinion. It is my own.
@Team Black-Cat wrote:
Sorry… I was editing my last post when you were posting. Read the addition.
You may be right. I may be reading Article IX incorrectly. If so, Mia culpa.
No hard feelings. Just trying to clarify. I’ve been on various boards in the past and at times it can be a thankless job. For the record – I think the WGA and board is doing a good job from what I’ve seen over the 9 months that I’ve been a member.
@glorkar wrote:
Maybe it’s just me, but it does seem like there are a lot of posts in the few “adoption” threads that could be moved to one central thread for discussing/debating the issue.
I hear ya but I’m not even going to begin to try to move all pertinent items to a single thread. If another BOD member/admin want to attempt go ahead. Maybe easier, If someone want’s to post a new thread I will re-post my most recent post in that topic.
FYI – This topic did have it’s own dedicated post with gotta run’s poll.
From that point the discussion has been carried on in various other threads, emails, offline discussions, etc.
Some people may feel like this discussion is debating something insignificant or arguing just for the sake of arguing. Perhaps for you it might be. But I think if you read seldom|seen’s post you will start to understand that for some members this discussion is important.
Some people have tried to make geocaching just a bit more than finding a key holder and signing your name and tallying a find count. Should we discount that effort? Should we reward that effort? Either way, we should respect the cache owners who have helped make this game what it is for all of us.
All I know is that it just feels wrong handing someone else the solved coordinates to a puzzle cache. Not because the written rules tell me so. I also know that there are others out there who feel the same way.
The saddest thing about this is how easily it could be avoided, or resolved.
As I said to a fellow player recently, “If you knew that something that you did was REALLY bothering other players in the game, even if you didn’t agree with or understand why it was bothering them, wouldn’t you just change your behavior if you could in order to play nice?”
Well of course you would. I know that some well-deserved posts made in my general direction has caused me to look at the things I post and say and decide to think first, post second.
What is causing the biggest brouhaha here is NOT the instances of “out caching with my friends” logs. What IS causing the issue is the way that GPX files and spreadsheets and whatever are simply passed around like party favors and these tours are being thrown in our face via the WGA forums and elsewhere as a big giant middle finger that is raised week after week.
Even continuing to call these things “puzzle cache tours” is a slap in the face. Think of what the word TOUR implies. Not “group hunt” or even “outing,” but TOUR. I’m sorry, but words mean things.
So that’s what I think, but since I can’t change the behavior, I’m focusing on what I can change, which is our own caches. Again, it’s not vindictive, it’s just reactionary.
On the Left Side of the Road...Don’t get me wrong, I do feel that this is an issue worth discussing. I cannot play a major role for the facts that I have not hidden many puzzles, nor have I found many puzzles from the major players at the heart of the discussion.
I think what was done was wrong. I’m all for an individual finding a puzzle by any means. Not a group. If an individual does it without the coordinates, chances are they worked just as hard as solving the puzzle would have been. Just passing around and answer sheet does seem to beg the question: why bother? Especially in a group setting. Half the fun is finding the cache. In a group, one person finds it, everybody signs it. Granted, it is more of a social occasion with more people, but why not just go for a hike or a walk downtown then?
The problem with having this discussion on this forum is that not all geocachers in Wisconsin are active members of the WGA. What we say here effects only those who read it.
I do feel that the actions taken by the COs is a little drastic. I don’t know all of the info, but I can look at the numbers. Have these caches been found before? Yes. Could they be found again? Yes. Will the people involved in the ‘tour’ find them again? No. The amount of people who participated is a negligible amount compared to the total number of cachers in Wisconsin and the surrounding area. Chances are that everybody who would make the find without the solve already has. I would brush it off and enjoy the next generation of finders that comes along.@glorkar wrote:
I would brush it off and enjoy the next generation of finders that comes along.
Future finders learn from our veteran player’s example.
Especially when they attend events intended to teach them how to solve puzzles (or teach them to find them no matter how they get the coords) and when they attend social events where they learn from our veterans and when they are invited to puzzle tours.
Just because a cacher(s) invited to participate in a tour doesn’t mean they have to go. If enough cachers STOP participating in tours, the tour will only consist of 1 cacher; 2 if that 1 cacher needs someone along to say the things that they want to hear.
“Just say NO to tours!”
Thanks, Jim. Wise words to pass along to others, and I think perhaps the only apparent solution to some of the strife mentioned as this thread returns to “regularly scheduled programming” for an update.
The response to offering these creations has been heartwarming, as good friends, and some new ones I have yet to meet, have stepped forward to help keep these caches in play for all. In only a couple of days almost half of the caches and locations made available have been spoken for, and others are considering some of the ones that are still remain.
Those still looking for new caretakers are:
Sheboygan:
Little Cache on the Prairie (GCPMX1)Royalton/New London:
WSQ Royalton (GC14289)Hollandtown:
Schut, Every Town Needs a Kids’ Cache (GC1A0BM)Dale area:
Across The Creek (GC1BHAR)High Cliff/Sherwood:
Tread Lightly – Up the Creek and Around the Pond (GC1RA9B)
High Cliff – Shore Is A Nice View (GC1R7WJ)Fox Cities area:
Down By The Riverside (GC1A09K)
Cousin On The Pine Prairie (GC18X7A)
Highview Park (GC150JR)
ODS: Friendship Trail (GC1A8FM)
Memorial Marshgrass (GC1A0TY)
Did I Hear Shots? (GC1A0C7)
Miata’s Moonlit Mystery (GC12GT9)
Just Another Appleton Park in Palisades (GC15TA4)
Earth Angel Special (GC1A09W)Jstajlr has stepped forward for our “Across The Creek” cache. Congrats and thank-you!
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.