Should placing a geocache inside a roundabout be banned?

[-cheeto-]

all I can do is publish the cache.

Technically, you could take a different stance on this as a reviewer. You could question the approval that was gotten to place a cache in an intersection, no?

There’s an older blog from November http://iowaadmin.blogspot.com/2008/11/roundabouts.html from IowaAdmin (known by another name on our forums) that states a slightly different reviewer opinion on this topic.

[gotta run]

@-cheeto- wrote:

safety is at the discretion of everyone caching.

Yes but are you referring to the safety of the cacher or the safety of the general public? 2 totally different things.

Not really. You have to make your own decision when you come up to GZ. We’ve driven away from places for various safety reasons.

If you drive up and it’s a tree, and you don’t want to climb a tree, you don’t climb it.

If it’s a cliff, and you don’t want to fall too your doom, you don’t go on it.

If it’s a roundabout, and it’s against your better judgment not to go in it, don’t.

There’s no need to be the cache police.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[gotta run]

@greyhounder wrote:

They are perfectly legal, even if they aren’t a good idea.

End of story.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[hogrod]

@gotta run wrote:

There’s no need to be the cache police.

End of story.

I’m very glad you let us hear the other side of the argument, but I think this type of placement gives geocaching a bad name. The Reviewers should be stopping this unsafe & plain stupid placement.

Are caches allowed in the middle of 4 lane highways on that little green strip of grass in the medium? by your logic they should be. I can’t believe anyone thinks its ok to “Play” in the middle of an intersection.

[gotta run]

Thanks for stringing together two disconnected quotes to draw a conclusion about what I said, Hogrod. You have a future in journalism.

There are lots of places where it is a terribly bad idea to “play” but you will find caches there. We have a Wisconsin reviewer saying these placements are within the rules.

Personally, I think they’re bad hides and a bad idea. But I believe we simply have to let people use their own good (or bad) judgment. I think my points are clear. Agree or disagree, just don’t misrepresent what I say.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[-cheeto-]

@gotta run wrote:

@-cheeto- wrote:

safety is at the discretion of everyone caching.

Yes but are you referring to the safety of the cacher or the safety of the general public? 2 totally different things.

Not really. You have to make your own decision when you come up to GZ. We’ve driven away from places for various safety reasons.

If you drive up and it’s a tree, and you don’t want to climb a tree, you don’t climb it.

If it’s a cliff, and you don’t want to fall too your doom, you don’t go on it.

If it’s a roundabout, and it’s against your better judgment not to go in it, don’t.

There’s no need to be the cache police.

You did not respond to my comment at all which was that there is a large difference between a person choosing to participate in a “risky activity” and potentially injuring themself versus that person entering the intersection and causing an accident which would potentially injure others.

By “banning”, I am really referring to including the interior of modern roundabout intersections in the “Off-Limit (Physical) Caches” section of the “Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines”. This poll is about whether the general geocaching population in Wisconsin would favor this action or not. Simply put, should this type of cache placement be banned?

I think everyone is interested in debating this and also learning about the legality. If anyone has any actual facts pertaining to local ordinances or state/federal laws or DOT stances on pedestrians in the middle of these intersections that would be helpful information to post as well.

My post was not to question if this is currently allowed because obviously it is or there wouldn’t be a bunch of them published. My question involves your opinion on whether they Should not be allowed.

[gotta run]

Ok, let me be…hopefully…more clear.

Personally, I think they SHOULD NOT be placed there, but not banned by geocaching. There is a whole array of stuff that falls under the “dangerous” umbrella.

Secondly, I do not think the potential to cause accidents or injure others is unique to roundabout hides at all. Take any roadsign hide and a cacher could cause an accident simply by running across the road in a hurry.

So, simple answer:

Should caches be placed in roundabouts: NO.
Should geocaching ban caches from being placed in roundabouts: NO.

And I retract my previous comment about “End of story.” That was from a “current acceptability” standpoint. By all means, let the debate continue; everyone has a right to sound off.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[hogrod]

@gotta run wrote:

Thanks for stringing together two disconnected quotes to draw a conclusion about what I said, Hogrod. You have a future in journalism.

Personally, I think they’re bad hides and a bad idea. But I believe we simply have to let people use their own good (or bad) judgment. I think my points are clear. Agree or disagree, just don’t misrepresent what I say.

Hmm… both your post(one on top of the other) clearly are for placing these types of stupid caches, why else would you have said what you did? I’m pretty sure if you didn’t want me to quote you you wouldn’t have said either statement.
Your argument that since the reviewer says they are legal placements this is a perfectly ok practice is ridiculous, I think a reviewer of caches in WI should be doing what WI cachers want as a whole, and so far it seems the majority is against this type of placement.
Doesn’t the WI reviewer not publish caches in State Natural Area’s, Waysides, because the majority of DNR, or Highway departments say they do not want them placed there? It would only make sense that the reviewers would do what WI geocachers want too.

@gotta run wrote:

Secondly, I do not think the potential to cause accidents or injure others is unique to roundabout hides at all. Take any road sign hide and a cacher could cause an accident simply by running across the road in a hurry.

These caches should be banned too, who did the hider get permission from for placing another type of stupid cache? I’m sure the highway department would frown upon this type of placement too since they don’t even want cachers in waysides.

On the same note, who does a person get permission from to place a roundabout hide? Does everyone think that since the street is public its perfectly of to not seek permission for placement?

If we let these types of hides(along with a few other questionable placements) slide we risk getting geocaching banned as a whole. If we don’t filter out these crappy hides it puts geocaching in a bad light with the general public. So if we don’t police our own eventually the real police may give fines for geocaching in city parks, ect. after city’s, county’s, and states enact ordinances/laws banning geocaching.

[hogrod]

Slightly off topic, I have found allot of caches that I would consider bad placement and always wonder how the heck did this get approved. I realize our reviewers jobs are hard but shouldn’t they stop some of these?

a few examples: edge of park next to someones yard, tree line next to pubic sidewalk next to someones yard, very public placements near government buildings or businesses, street signs, culverts, next to a headstone, backyard parks surrounded by houses with only sidewalk access.

I was going to look for a couple quotes from caches that tell you of how poor some of these placements are but I think this one sums up the issues facing geocaching in the future if we don’t police our own better or make the reviewers take another look at some placements. The quote below is from a cache that is still placed and been out since 2007.

Quote from cache log…
“We took the more “public” route to get to the cache and one of the neighbors came out to give us a talkin’ to about keeping off his property, so beware of the property lines. He was aware of what we were looking for and gave us a hint which was wrong. I wonder if he comes out everytime he sees people poking around? He made a fairly sarcastic comment about how he could really understand why people would want to spent their time looking for hidden objects.”

[Lostby7]

@hogrod wrote:

Quote from cache log…
“We took the more “public” route to get to the cache and one of the neighbors came out to give us a talkin’ to about keeping off his property, so beware of the property lines. He was aware of what we were looking for and gave us a hint which was wrong. I wonder if he comes out everytime he sees people poking around? He made a fairly sarcastic comment about how he could really understand why people would want to spent their time looking for hidden objects.”

This is an example of an instance where the “Needs Archived” log should be used. Clearly the neighbor is irritated. We as geocachers can police the caches by logging those questionable listings as Needs Archived. That sends an instant message to the reviewers who will take seriously the note. The same goes for roundabouts…if they are deemed unsafe by any cacher they can flag them.

[Mathman]

WOW!

Everyone has so many harsh comments about roundabouts. I happen to have placed a cache inside of one. There isn’t an extreme amount of traffic but there is enough. I think it tests a cacher’s ability to see how stealthy they can be.

If you want to talk about banning caches I can think of many “up in the tree caches” which are ultimately much more dangerous. Just my thoughts.

[Buy_The_Tie]

@gotta run wrote:

Personally, I think they SHOULD NOT be placed there, but not banned by geocaching. There is a whole array of stuff that falls under the “dangerous” umbrella.

Yup. I agree.

[-cheeto-]

Thanks Jeremy for fixing the Subject of the Thread to match the Poll question. My apologies if this caused confusion on the poll. It was not intended.

[hogrod]

@Mathman wrote:

If you want to talk about banning caches I can think of many “up in the tree caches” which are ultimately much more dangerous. Just my thoughts.

It’s not the danger to ones self that an issue, we all agree to the Geocaching.com Disclaimer that’s on every cache page. When you climb a tree you only endandger yourself, but at a roundabout you could cause a multi-car pileup and kill/injure others.

cliffs, water placements,(& a few other ‘tough placements’ I can’t think of right now) these places you only risk yourself not others. so thee places are quite alright in my book.

[gotta run]

@hogrod wrote:

It’s not the danger to ones self that an issue, we all agree to the Geocaching.com Disclaimer that’s on every cache page. When you climb a tree you only endanger yourself, but at a roundabout you could cause a multi-car pileup and kill/injure others.

You can drop stuff out of a tree or fall out of a tree yourself onto other people. I just about dropped a rock on my wife’s head today whilst on a cliff (I’m sure I would have gotten injured worse if I had, but that’s not the point). You can cause a car accident while looking at your GPSr, or so I have heard. 😉 You can swamp the canoe with your passengers inside who can’t swim and who forgot to wear their lifejackets.

And on and on and on.

You get the point. Plus many roundabouts are designed to handle pedestrian crossing traffic. Perhaps the ones that prompted this thread aren’t, I don’t know.

Will we ever hide one in a roundabout? No. Will we look for one there? No (but we have rescued one). Should we put yet another restriction into the “guidelines?” I prefer the libertarian approach and like to think that most people have at least a modicum of intelligence and common sense. Sometimes I am unfortunately proved wrong.

On the Left Side of the Road...

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