Should placing a geocache inside a roundabout be banned?

[hogrod]

@gotta run wrote:

You can drop stuff out of a tree or fall out of a tree yourself onto other people. I just about dropped a rock on my wife’s head today whilst on a cliff (I’m sure I would have gotten injured worse if I had, but that’s not the point).

And on and on and on.

All the examples you listed the person was caching/traveling with your so they also assume the same risks that you did. If I am traveling in my car I also assume there is risk involved but when a Sport(geocaching) increases the risk to others on a public road it should be banned. Imagine if they let a football or baseball game take place in the middle of the road, I’m sure that would be frowned upon.

If I am on a cliff geocaching and a rock falls because of me killing a hiker it would have happened anyway since theres a chance I would have been hiking there anyway as that’s what I do(hike), Accidents happen.

95% of the roundabouts I have been though DO NOT have public walkways through the centers, most have walkways along the outer edge a safe distance away. The Reason? To keep people out of the roundabout & traffic. Taking a look at the brochure mentioned at the beginning of this thread you can see this is exactly how this roundabout is designed, to keep people out of the traffic flow.

@gotta run wrote:

Should we put yet another restriction into the “guidelines?” I prefer the libertarian approach and like to think that most people have at least a modicum of intelligence and common sense. Sometimes I am unfortunately proved wrong.

I came to the conclusion long ago that most people have no common sense let alone intelligence. A new restriction is the best option when you consider all the possible negatives on a roundabout hide.

1. Risk to others/public
2. Jaywalking ticket
3. Negative Press for geocaching
4. No Permission Granted (this alone should get them stopped)

[gotta run]

These points and their shading could be debated all day, but the bottom line is I believe cache hiders and placers should not be disallowed the full freedom to use their own judgment, even if it is bad judgment.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Astro_D]

I think with the lack of common sense and judgement by many people, sometimes certain restrictions need to be put in place. Just because something can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done. I know we all subscribe to the diclaimer that we assume all risks when hunting caches, but I don’t think that subscribes to putting drivers at risk when we hunt cahes in roundabouts. I know from experience, that I’ve been caught up in the search and not paid attention to my surroundings. Drivers have enough to contend with in the act of driving, now throw in geocachers who can stop short of nothing to get a smiley….

With “sue” happy people and cacher hiders pushing the envelop with hide locations, sometimes intervention is a necessity. With roundabouts, I think this one of those times. There are plenty of other places to hide a cache. To me it says something (and it isn’t positive) about geocaching and those participating in it when roundabouts become acceptable places for a cache.

[gotta run]

@AstroD-Team wrote:

With “sue” happy people and cacher hiders pushing the envelop with hide locations, sometimes intervention is a necessity.

It’s funny you bring this point up because I was discussing this with -cheeto- off the boards and I have a different take on this. Geocaching likes to have it both ways with this issue. On one hand, “we’re just a bulletin board,” and everything is at your own risk. On the other hand, “we have all these guidelines for acceptable publication.”

I’m not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but my sense is that the more the guidelines would become about allowing or disallowing things based on what’s good for you (or anyone else), the more someone could point to the rules…uh, I mean “guidelines…and say, “Well, you said I couldn’t hide one in the roundabout, but you didn’t say I couldn’t put one here, and after all the reviewer who is associated with groundspeak published it so you’re saying it’s ok.”

That takes us away from our “yes/no” topic here, but it’s interesting to think about as we consider the merits of guidelines that are not based on laws that exist but, instead, our own beliefs of what might or might not be a good thing for the average human being to do.

And yes, I know the WGA is not geocaching.com but the line has been pretty darn blurry for some time.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[kbraband]

@-cheeto- wrote:

all I can do is publish the cache.

Technically, you could take a different stance on this as a reviewer. You could question the approval that was gotten to place a cache in an intersection, no?

There’s an older blog from November http://iowaadmin.blogspot.com/2008/11/roundabouts.html from IowaAdmin (known by another name on our forums) that states a slightly different reviewer opinion on this topic.

Thanks for the link. I can’t speak for the Wisconsin reviewers, but as I stated in my blog, the Iowa Department of Transportation has stated, “Never walk though a roundabout or cross the center island.”
However, some roundabouts do seem to be designed for pedestrian traffic. But that doesn’t negate the fact that permission is needed to place a geocache there — required for all geocaches listed on geocaching.com. So here’s what I tell Iowa geocachers: If you as the cache owner feel a roundabout cache would not be a hazard to geocachers or to drivers, and if you are able to obtain permission for your geocache placement from the government in charge of the roundabout, then it’s very likely that it can be approved, provided it complies with the other guidelines of geocaching.com.

[zuma]

Interesting discussion, and I see merit in many of the posts here, on both sides of the issue.

However, freedom to me includes the freedom to make bad choices. What really is freedom if it does not include the ability to make choices, some wise, some not so wise.

My tagline is my philisophy: Keep On Cachin In The FREE World. That includes freedom to place and find caches in assinine and stupid places. Because if only ideal cache locations were permitted, it would not really be freedom, would it? You are free to choose if you want to place a cache in a dumb spot, and I am free to choose whether I want to go find that cache or not.

Now, personally, I prefer caches in the woods either along great hiking trails to beautiful spots or walks where I have to bushwhack to the middle of nowhere. That is my choice. I cherish my freedom to make the choice to look for those type of caches.

At the same time, it is obvious you dont get 10K finds by only finding great caches in the woods on great trails, so in truth I have found caches in some pretty poor spots too. The most assinine one I recall was called “Frogger” and required you to cross half ways across an 8 lane city road to the guardrail in between the busy city traffic. Assinine location. Stupid of the cache owner to put it there. Equally stupid of me to go log it just for a smiley, but in all honesty, to me that is what freedom is about: the freedom to occassionaly make bad choices.

So I voted no in the poll, and see I am in the minority. It surprizes me a bit that people in the most free country in the world are so quick to embrace infringements on that freedom. But we see this same rationalizing of mandating good choices generalized to people’s desire to have rules put into place that demand people only make wise choices, whether those choices are about owning guns, smoking, eating cheeseburgers, wearing seat belts, wearing helmets on motorcycles, etc.

Sure, I wish people always made the “right” choice too. I just hate to see the right to make a wrong choice taken away, because when you do that, someone is chipping away at our fundamental freedom.

Cachin and Livin In The Free World,

z

[Astro_D]

@zuma wrote:

Sure, I wish people always made the “right” choice too. I just hate to see the right to make a wrong choice taken away, because when you do that, someone is chipping away at our fundamental freedom.

Cachin and Livin In The Free World,

z

Not only that, but making the wrong or bad choice is sometimes life’s greatest teacher/lesson!!

We’ll see how well roundabout hides go when someone gets hit by a car and explains they’re were “geocaching”. I can’t wait to see what type of damage control gets enacted then. LOL

I will not seek out caches in a roundabout, nor encourage anyone to do so. I hope those that need a hide or smiley count that terribly don’t get hit by me while hiding or looking for it. Oh wait, I avoid driving those damned roundabouts like the plague! Or would that be swine flu nowadays??

[Crow-T-Robot]

I initially voted “yes” but that was from a standpoint that I didn’t really see the value of a roundabout hide, especially when you add in the potential danger of getting to the hide. But, as more roundabouts spring up, I’ve noticed that they’ve gone from just circular patches of ground (at least most of the first ones I recall in the area were just that), to being small flower beds and gardens with sidewalks and benches. Someone is responsible to maintain these flowers/gardens, right? So, if the city that built this roundabout also included planting flowers, adding sidewalks and benches, thereby not only inviting pedestrian traffic, but requiring it…I don’t see a problem with a geocache being placed there. With permission of course 😯
So, I veto myself and vote “no” on banning.

Bruce

[gotta run]

Well said, Zuma.

I was also thinking how this discussion is very interesting based on some of the other threads about waysides. In those threads, if I recall correctly, the DOT authorities who disallow geocaching in waysides because it is (paraphrasing) “too dangerous” were widely panned.

It’s therefore very interesting that the geocaching community as represented by the poll respondents here are so willing to disallow geocaching in another location for a similiar judgment call.

Like I said, just say “No!” to roundabout caches, and just say “No!” to banning caches in roundabouts!

On the Left Side of the Road...

[hogrod]

Maybe I’m missing something but it seems the only argument against banning these caches is it somehow takes away some freedom?
How about when one of these placements cause someones death and we loose the freedom to cache altogether when city’s, county’s, and states start banning caches all together? Sometimes there needs to be some rules & guidelines in place to protect freedom, and in this case, geocaching as a whole.

Zuma – As the WGA vice president I would have guessed you would have taken the bad light these placements could put on geocaching more seriously. Guess your more of a geocacher than a representative of the geocaching community in Wisconsin.

Freedom is just a perception of an individual, not a real reason to not ban a VERY poorly placed cache that WILL give geocaching bad press. Driving drunk is banned because of the risk to others, placing caches in roundabouts risk others so its just as bad as DUI. 😆

[gotta run]

@hogrod wrote:

placing caches in roundabouts risk others so its just as bad as DUI.

Wow.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[hogrod]

@gotta run wrote:

@hogrod wrote:

placing caches in roundabouts risk others so its just as bad as DUI.

Wow.

it is a risk to others pretty simple analogy. you cache for fun in road, others drive drunk while having fun on the road.

[gotta run]

Equating cachers who place caches in roundabouts to criminals is more than just hyperbole. You’ve crossed the line and I am done trying to have any rational discussion with you!

On the Left Side of the Road...

[hogrod]

@gotta run wrote:

Equating cachers who place caches in roundabouts to criminals is more than just hyperbole. You’ve crossed the line and I am done trying to have any rational discussion with you!

I am not saying cachers who places these caches are like criminals, I am comparing risks to the public when public risk is involved things should be banned.
Unless you open your eyes and admit there is risk to public(which there is) & this WILL give geocaching bad press, you might as well put your keyboard away.
If you have something REAL to add to this discussion I am more than willing to hear the other side of the fence, but all you seem to be doing is attacking anyone who says something against your opinion and screaming your freedom is being taken away.

so to quote you….

@gotta run wrote:

End of story.

[Lostby7]

I think following kbraband’s example and requiring folks to get permission for these listings prior to publishing the cache is the best way to approach this. My feeling is that VERY FEW of these listings would get approved as local leaders would not see these roundabouts as playgrounds like some cachers seem to think they are. I would be willing to retract my BAN THEM vote provided explicit permission was gotten from the proper government officials for EVERY listing.

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