Should placing a geocache inside a roundabout be banned?

[-cheeto-]

provided explicit permission was gotten from the proper government officials for EVERY listing.

This is along the lines of what I commented to in some private emails to others.

I know typically Groundspeak volunteer reviewers “take your word” on permission as long as the placement is not in an area that requires explicit permission stated on the page or in reviewer notes i.e. DNR land, certain municipalities requiring forms, known private land such as walmart parking lots, etc.

I also believe that these placements could be “prevented” rather than “banned” by giving them a bit more scrutiny on the review process. I know it’s not always possible to determine “what’s in a roundabout”, especially since they are popping up as new construction. However, when it’s evident that they are in a roundabout intersection (stated in the listing, or hints about traffic, etc) perhaps they should be given extra scrutiny on explicit permission like IowaAdmin is doing

Yeah it’s being subjective (requiring explicit permission here but not there) on the review process, but isn’t it always subjective really anyway?? Otherwise we wouldn’t need volunteer reviewers.

I highly doubt Groundspeak would add this to their list of off-limit placements. However, as Geocachers in Wisconsin we could prevent these types of placements in our region.

I urge those out there to avoid hunting these caches if you feel that you may be injured or cause a traffic accident. If you do log one (because you need the smiley to add to your thousands of others) please log how disastisfied you are with the irresponsible placement of a cache. If you attempt a cache like this, and you feel it’s an inappropriate placement, don’t feel afraid to post a note to the page or contact the owner. Yeah we should not all be “cache cops” but an inappropriate cache is an inappropriate cache.

Perhaps this is how they get “banned”. Not explicitly but through doing everything we can to prevent them in the first place and if they already exist or “slip through” then they go away through this “natural selection” others have talked about.

This was not my original position on this subject but it’s been interesting to formulate a much more reasonable opinion based on 4+ pages of discussion and the poll results thus far.

I am sure my post will now spawn further discussion which is great!

[Mister Greenthumb]

Our local newspaper has an article this morning about 5 proposed roundabouts on HWY C in Delalfield. Did I hear someone say “power trail”?

On a more serious note I don’t believe roundabout hides should be banned, but serious discretion should be used when placing one. My roundabout hide in Okauchee is about as far removed from being a hazard as possible. The roundabout is surrounded on the outside perimeter by gardens, benches and the historic sign that I used for the cache. It is designed to be shared and enjoyed by both pedestrians and drivers.

It is up to the seeker to decide whether a hide is safe and within their skills to retrieve. It is also up to the hider to place caches using common sense. I have found many interesting places for a cache and did not place one due to safety or exposure reasons. A main concern of mine when I place a cache is the enjoyment of my geocaching friends and a placement that will not jeopordize the name of geocaching. I went through the number of hides that other cachers in the state have and was surprised to find that I rank 14th in the state. So now you have an opinion from someone who places a lot of hides and does so RESPONSIBLY.

[gotta run]

@-cheeto- wrote:

I also believe that these placements could be “prevented” rather than “banned” by giving them a bit more scrutiny on the review process….Yeah it’s being subjective (requiring explicit permission here but not there) on the review process, but isn’t it always subjective really anyway?? Otherwise we wouldn’t need volunteer reviewers.

It’s a logical argument. The whole topic of “permission” has been discussed here before but we all know it’s a nod-and-wink process except when it is governmentally required. (Ok, now I’m sure someone is going to tell me that they send the boilerplate form available on this site on every one of their caches.)

I still don’t think anything different should be done than is being done right now, but it also appears the appropriate tools/guidelines are already in place vis-a-vie permissions to address any issues surrounding these caches that reviewers have concerns with, or which the caching community collectively decides should be addressed.

Obviously we won’t get 100% agreement on any issue. Well, other than “geocaching is great!” perhaps….

On the Left Side of the Road...

[gotta run]

@Mathman wrote:

WOW!

Everyone has so many harsh comments about roundabouts. I happen to
have placed a cache inside of one.

You better be careful Mathman. According to some people this is equivalent to committing a crime. If you place 4 more, you’ll be committing a felony in Wisconsin!

On the Left Side of the Road...

[-cheeto-]

@Mister Greenthumb wrote:

Our local newspaper has an article this morning about 5 proposed roundabouts on HWY C in Delalfield. Did I hear someone say “power trail”?

On a more serious note I don’t believe roundabout hides should be banned, but serious discretion should be used when placing one. My roundabout hide in Okauchee is about as far removed from being a hazard as possible. The roundabout is surrounded on the outside perimeter by gardens, benches and the historic sign that I used for the cache. It is designed to be shared and enjoyed by both pedestrians and drivers.

It is up to the seeker to decide whether a hide is safe and within their skills to retrieve. It is also up to the hider to place caches using common sense. I have found many interesting places for a cache and did not place one due to safety or exposure reasons. A main concern of mine when I place a cache is the enjoyment of my geocaching friends and a placement that will not jeopordize the name of geocaching. I went through the number of hides that other cachers in the state have and was surprised to find that I rank 14th in the state. So now you have an opinion from someone who places a lot of hides and does so RESPONSIBLY.

This sounds completely different than what I am referring to. I am referring to placing a cache inside the center of a roundabout intersection. Typically these intersections do not invite pedestrians into the center. If the one you placed a cache at has nice inviting benches, signs, greenspace, etc around the outside of the circle where pedestrians are meant to be and you placed your cache in this area then you are talking apples to oranges here not apples to apples.

Placing a cache in the center of roundabout intersections like the many that exist in Appleton is more analogous to a cache in the middle of a multi lane road. Typically it’s not “pretty” in the middle of these intersections and cars are circling all day long. Lots of ugly road-signs everywhere. And most importantly, as pedestrians, you are a divers least concern as they circle and exit these intersections. Especially if you are crossing into the middle where there is no cross walk. Your presence in the middle is more of a distraction because then they are busy wondering what you are doing rather than paying attention to who may also be entering the circle in their vehicle.

[Joey_Skywalker]

If people would quit complaining about roundabouts and just learn how to use them correctly this would not even be an issue.

I vote no because at some point drivers are going to have to bother to learn about roundabouts or stop driving.

[-cheeto-]

@Joey_Skywalker wrote:

If people would quit complaining about roundabouts and just learn how to use them correctly this would not even be an issue.

I vote no because at some point drivers are going to have to bother to learn about roundabouts or stop driving.

Perhaps you are confused on the question. I am not exploring banning roundabouts nor is anyone really debating a person’s ability to navigate them.

We’ve had these intersections in the Neenah and Appleton area for a few years now. However, caches have now started popping up in the middle of them.

No matter how capable all drivers are at navigating a roundabout is it acceptable for us to be playing a hide and seek game in the middle of that intersection? That’s what this is about.

[hogrod]

@gotta run wrote:

@Mathman wrote:

WOW!

Everyone has so many harsh comments about roundabouts. I happen to
have placed a cache inside of one.

You better be careful Mathman. According to some people this is equivalent to committing a crime. If you place 4 more, you’ll be committing a felony in Wisconsin!

Obviously you are talking about my comments before but for some reason even though I already cleared up your misinterpretation of what I said you are still missing that the comparison I made was about the RISK TO PUBLIC, not the crime itself.

Seems I need to repeat myself allot around you. I’ll assume since you can type you are not a bit slow but like to hear yourself talk & only care for your own opinion. Either way your comments are very childish considering I have never once made fun of anything you have said.

[JimandLinda]

You could make the roundabout hides Premium Member mandatory. At least that way, no newbies will be picked off. If an experienced cacher wants to risk life or limb, send them in! If you don’t come out alive, we’ll here about it, I’m sure.

We’re about to the point in this thread where the Bomb Squad is called, or the “beating a dead horse” icons will start posting, but I’ve enjoyed the nonrepetitious comments. I’ve seen some roundabouts that very few cars pass through. But that new one in Depere, on the east end of the new bridge…WOW! Traffic can back up for 3 blocks in all directions.

Make ’em Premium Members caches.

[Joey_Skywalker]

@-cheeto- wrote:

@Joey_Skywalker wrote:

If people would quit complaining about roundabouts and just learn how to use them correctly this would not even be an issue.

I vote no because at some point drivers are going to have to bother to learn about roundabouts or stop driving.

Perhaps you are confused on the question. I am not exploring banning roundabouts nor is anyone really debating a person’s ability to navigate them.

We’ve had these intersections in the Neenah and Appleton area for a few years now. However, caches have now started popping up in the middle of them.

No matter how capable all drivers are at navigating a roundabout is it acceptable for us to be playing a hide and seek game in the middle of that intersection? That’s what this is about.

Ohhhh I thought it was a safety thing, sorry!

[-cheeto-]

@Joey_Skywalker wrote:

@-cheeto- wrote:

@Joey_Skywalker wrote:

If people would quit complaining about roundabouts and just learn how to use them correctly this would not even be an issue.

I vote no because at some point drivers are going to have to bother to learn about roundabouts or stop driving.

Perhaps you are confused on the question. I am not exploring banning roundabouts nor is anyone really debating a person’s ability to navigate them.

We’ve had these intersections in the Neenah and Appleton area for a few years now. However, caches have now started popping up in the middle of them.

No matter how capable all drivers are at navigating a roundabout is it acceptable for us to be playing a hide and seek game in the middle of that intersection? That’s what this is about.

Ohhhh I thought it was a safety thing, sorry!

Let me put this another way for you.

Regardless of how proficient the general public becomes in navigating modern roundabout intersections, there is still safety concerns with placing an object in the center of these intersections with the intent for others to seek this object.

There have been roundabout intersections in the Appleton area for at least 3 years. No matter how many years you add to that number and how “comfortable” the general public is with these intersections, I don’t think my opinion or that of many other geocachers would change all that much. The center of the road is still the center of the road, no matter how good at driving the public is!

[Sagasu]

Like gotta run, and zuma!, I am big on freedom of choice. I have actually logged a couple roundabout hides, and chose to do what in hindsight seems possibly like jaywalking to get to them. Neither of the hides were anything memorable, but I found them at the time because they were FTFs. This interesting discussion on caches of this kind seems to have taken a dive into the black and white of the issue, with a lot of splitting hairs and some pretty strong opinions supporting or defending one side or the other. Life is just not that way. Neither is freedom.

Though initially I voted with the present majority on this topic, it seems there is a lot more gray area to consider, like the right to log dumb hides for the numbers (or the FTF), the choice of many, or dangerous ones for the challenge or excitement, which others sometimes find preferable. There is also the thorny issue of public perception about the activity, or more importantly, some of the misconceptions that arise. This is the facet of the topic that I considered most when I voted on the poll. I guess now, I would change that to a “depends on the circumstances” choice, if there were one.

I think it is inevitable that some of these roundabout hides will be scrutinized and challenged or banned by public authorities. If unpredictable and fickle media coverage accompanies such events, geocaching risks more than it gains by having some of these caches approved. If some culverts, listed by the DOT as bridges, are deemed off limits, and some cache placements across a street and field from a live rail line are determined to be unacceptable by reviewers, most of the roundabout caches warrant as much, if not more scrutiny. Those without walkways or other specific pedestrian access to the hide position are probably not worth the risk to geocaching.

[seldom|seen]

@zuma wrote:

However, freedom to me includes the freedom to make bad choices. What really is freedom if it does not include the ability to make choices, some wise, some not so wise.

That includes freedom to place and find caches in asinine and stupid places. Because if only ideal cache locations were permitted, it would not really be freedom, would it? You are free to choose if you want to place a cache in a dumb spot, and I am free to choose whether I want to go find that cache or not.

So I voted no in the poll, and see I am in the minority. It surprises me a bit that people in the most free country in the world are so quick to embrace infringements on that freedom. But we see this same rationalizing of mandating good choices generalized to people’s desire to have rules put into place that demand people only make wise choices, whether those choices are about owning guns, smoking, eating cheeseburgers, wearing seat belts, wearing helmets on motorcycles, etc.

As as cache owner of many caches that test the limits of the “guidelines” and many times infringe on the borders of what’s acceptable and what is not, when if comes to personal and public safety, I have to agree 100% with Zuma on this one.

Most of the local geocachers don’t bother with mine because they require a certain amount of desk time or are of the “dangerous” tree climb hide and that’s just fine by me. In fact, I tailor my caches to a certain segment of the geocaching population to cull out all of the park-n-grabbers that would find a stupid roundabout hide hard to pass by. The only way a cache like that would be memorable for me is if I DID get hit by a car while getting it!

Now, I understand the “bad name” that can be given to the sport when some fool (like myself on occasion) is looking at his iPhone instead of watching the road and rear-ends someone. But lets be frank. There are a thousand ways the geocachers can give the sport a bad rap, many of them mentioned in this thread. Caching on private property, climbing fences to shortcut caches, lurking in the dark in residential neighborhoods. All of which I have done, mind you. But, I have also done a great deal to try to improve the image of geocaching in the area like organizing and participating in CITO’s, working with area Organizations and police depatments to educate them about our sport, and putting on classes the cross the line between caching and other civic duties like reporting and removing invasive plant species.

That’s the balance. Place whatever caches you want, but try hard to minimize the ramifications if your placement results in some kind of bad press, inevitable with the public paranoia in this era, and moreover counter it with good interaction with the public and good press when the opportunity presents.

But don’t, place any more guideline limits on cache placements, we have enough of those already!

[seldom|seen]

I also meant to add a bit about the “keep the kids safe” aspect of this discussion. I have a couple myself and I have taken them to some crazy places, spots where even veteran cachers would question going. Tower climbs on open stairs, spelunking in unmarked caves and cliff climbing. Now, my wife and most people I know would probably faint if they saw some of my family antics, but I am always right there with them and have their safety in mind. I want my kids to grow up confident that they can face almost anything life presents and part of instilling that trait is presenting them with what seem to be insurmountable challenges which, with care and guidance, are not.

Recently, 2 of my caches have been highlighted by Park Personal to be moved or removed for the sake of children’s safety. One from the top of a young pine tree with many climbable branches (the kind of tree I myself was climbing when I was 5) and one about 7 feet down in the bottom of a cistern. Now, to me these are remedial and to my kids present the same kind of challenge that I mention above. “Well, if dad can do it, so I can I” but to some cachers and to those individuals who are thinking they will be held responsible if someone gets hurt on their watch, they are dangerous – accidents waiting to happen.

In both cases I had to make the point that when we get into this sport, we realize there is no premium on cache finds and that we all play to our strong suit. That each of us takes responsibility for our actions and for the people we choose bring along, either to cross a busy street or to climb a shear cliff face. As echoed many times in this thread, you don’t have to get every cache out there and you should know what you are capable of attempting. At the same time, challenges are presented and part of the sport, for me at least, is going beyond my comfort zone, and with that automatically comes a little risk. Today, gotta_run found himself scaling a rock monolith the likes of which, had it not been for the cache I placed there, he may never have attempted to climb. I suspect he feels a little more confident in himself and his ability after today and to me, it’s one of the most underrated aspects of this sport and one that I consider worth all the time and energy I put into it. If every cache that presented some element of danger were outlawed, it wouldn’t be much of a sport for me and I probably wouldn’t be playing, after all…

[Joey_Skywalker]

If you don’t like them don’t look for them. Nobody is forcing you too and they aren’t hurting anybody. Can’t we all just get along?

[Author]

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