Step up on Tony’s Soap box.

[WISearchers]

[Big Yonsson]

Each cache gives all the info anyone would need.This site lets us know if it is easy,mid,hard…Whether it is a big or small cache or a pill bottle.All of the information is right in front of us on this site.We just have to look and plan our trips.
I dont mind a small cache that is easy.I do these at lunch or on my way home from work.

In Red Granite there is a small pill bottle cache,but the actual cache is the beautiful rock quarry.

We all need to relax and just enjoy being outside.
Lets enjoy the sport and try and be a little more polite too…

[Folk Trakers]

This message is from Mrs. Traker, with no discussion from Mr. Traker, so his opinions may differ (they always do!).

First, I want to say, ‘hear, hear!!’ to Tony. Thank you for your courage to speak your mind, and saying it so nicely in an attempt to not offend. I agree with basically everything you said.

In addition, I do want to say that we need a few 1/1 caches in every area. In our efforts to introduce people to geocaching, our explanations of the sport are usually met with skepticism (you wander around with a little gadget in the woods and what do you get out of it?!?). Therefore the best way is to show someone what geocaching is. Because they are unsure, you don’t want to take them on really hard ones, that take a long time, as you will surely lose interest. We’ve taken many groups on simple, walk-up and find it caches, just to show them how to use the GPS and what geocaching is. They are usually so excited in doing this that we forget that this was a ‘simple’ one for us.

Lastly, this is a family sport for many. Families come in all shapes, sizes, ages, and physical abilities. To make sure this is an all-involved sport, we need to have variety in the hides.

Therefore I encourage all placers of cachers to keep up with the comments on your cache pages. If people are commenting that it is harder or easier than you thought, change the rating and description to be more helpful. If you are in search of the challenge, read the descriptions and comments thoroughly as people do share alot, and you get to know other cachers ratings, and you can use those as a guide.

I love the variety of this sport–hides, environments, and fellow cachers.

Thanks, Tony, for leaving a little room on your soapbox for others to join. I’ll jump off now, luckily it’s just a short jump down.

[Folk Trakers]

Standing Ovation!!!!!!

– No additional comments needed!

Mr Traker

[arffer]

quote:

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Tony said…
Do you remember what it was like to discover geocaching, do a few caches and then want to set up your own? I’m going to go out on a limb and say that it probably wasn’t worthy of Mensa. Nor was the area the scenic like the Grand Canyon.

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Yep, we do indeed remember what it was like to discover geocaching, do a few caches, and then want to set up our own. And your limb broke…

Our first cache, Tales from the Crypt (you will have to log in to see it as its archived) had over a week in its design and layout, including three trips to the site taking waypoints and bearings for its design. The location was a hidden Civil War era cemetary far back in a woods.

On our second cache, we put 2 solid weeks into its design and placement, including over 100 miles on the car gathering background information and photographs to add to the story line (Ode to the Bearded Lady, it is also archived). The location was a view of the 1850 Tiffany railroad bridge, one of only two stone 5 arch railway bridges in the world.

Another of our early caches, Beulah Land had over a month in its design and creation, including research at museums and libraries and investments in reference books.

And during our first year or so of caching, our examples were the norm, not the exception. Almost every single cache we hunted during that period demonstrated the same level of effort in design and placement by its creator. We could give you scores of examples of caches created in 2001 and 2002 that had at least as much effort, if not more, than ours had. Today, these types of caches have become the exception, no longer the rule.

We contend that the thought, care, and effort that are put into a cache’s design and placement are totally unrelated to the cache’s terrain and/or difficulty rating. Your point that if you had only encountered 4/4 caches when you started geocaching is irrelavant to the topic at hand. We are discussing low quality, not ratings. Thought and effort can be put into both the selecting of ‘special’ locations and/or unique hides without having to in any manner escalate either the terrain or the difficulty ratings.

Those of us that are decrying our perceived lowering of the quality bar in the last year or so has nothing to do with ratings. We are not lamenting 1/1 caches, we are lamenting low quality. That has nothing to do with the ratings.

No one has ‘evolved’ beyond finding/placing 1/1 caches, there is a very strong need for 1/1 caches for young families and those with physical limitations.

We are however seeing a strong ‘devolving’ in the amount of effort cache hiders are putting into the design and placement of their caches.

We respect your right to defend those creating ‘quick’ caches. Some of us on the other hand feel that when one creates and lists a cache there is an inherent responsibility to value the investment in time and resources that geocachers make when they hunt those caches. And when we hunt a cache that obviously had little effort in its placement or design, we frankly feel that the cache’s owner wasted our time. And we feel we have a right to say so…

And in our case, we simply lost 90% of our first year enthusiasm and rarely cache anymore as its too difficult to weed out the quality from the rudimentary caches.

[This message has been edited by CacheCows (edited 05-19-2004).]

[The Lil Otter]

I too enjoy the lil stops on the way that are 1/1’s .. but usually those places showed off something.. what bothers me is that geocaches mentor new players.. so that if all they ever get to see are guardrail/lightpole/parking lot mall-type hides.. they really then miss out on what our sport really is about.

It always used to be about a location.. or a special spot that someone wished to showoff to others.. I know there can be thousands of 1/1’s of these types in areas that do meet the needs of any with handicaps or younger children. So, why do we need to demean the elderly or handicapped by saying that we need these types that have nothing to offer except for Hide/Find count value? And why would we want our young children hunting by a guardrail (means it is close to traffic and unsafe) And those that just hide them in these types of locations to just seed an area for cache counts?? I know I’ve done what some have called “lame” caches.. but it was always an attempt to highlight the area.. I miss that when I travel now.. the adventure was always set on “what did they wish to show off now?” ..

And we are not talking about 30 finds per day.. but some can gather several hundred in such urban areas.. so it’s hard to wade through these and find the caches that do actually show off something of the area involved.

That is my only concern.. how to actually see something more of an area besides guardrails/malls/lightpoles etc..

~The Lil Otter

[admin]

I (Carole) say “hear hear!” as well to Tony! Way to go and saying it so perfectly. It’s a sport and the rule of enjoyment will vary. Some want location location? Fine! Others go for easy finds? Fine! Both? Great!

This is a sport that will evolve. Some may get hung up on “the good ol’ days” and there’s no one to change that attitude. I’m bummed virtuals have gotten such a bad rap, because there are some really neat places I’ve seen because of them. But, c’est la vie, I’ll live, and I’ll continue to enjoy the finds.

I also enjoy a challenge. Tim and I still talk about Devil’s Lake Revisited (at the time, we felt we were morans for doing it)–it was a great challenge! But do I want to do one of those every day? Not really. And would my parents even have tried geocaching then? Absolutely not. It’s a sport for all.

That is another reason why I love it so much! Tim and I were just talking about all the doors geocaching has opened for us. We’ve met some really great people, made friendships, feel connected. And it’s a mix of people–young, wise, single, married, families, etc. There is no way those friendships would have happened on their own. And there no way we’d meet all these different people if it didn’t vary so much. It’s not just for one type of people.

I do enjoy a long day of caching our brains out, and easy ones are cool to rack up some numbers. Yes, Tim and I enjoy our numbers. We like making personal goals. But, that’s not how it needs to be for everyone. That’s how we like it.

This is my opinion, and I can see the point of view others might have. But I don’t think we want to start turning our noses up at others. I’m not saying I’m perfect (as Tony also admitted). We’re just one big family that continues to grow, and that’s not always easy, cuz it was nice how it was, but it’s not going to stay that way.

As my manager from a decade ago would often say, “With change comes growth.”

More importantly, have fun, and happy caching!

“Like what you do. Do what you like”

Thanks Tony!

[Astro_D]

This is my first post. I am relatively new to geocaching (6 months) and do this as a family sport.
If it wasn’t for the 1/1 finds, this activity would require a babysitter so my hubby and I can go alone and then it would no longer be a family sport. 1/1’s give my 5 year old the opportunity to actually find a cache himself and he doesn’t get bored and whiny that results from spending hours looking for a harder rated cache.
When we’re out caching for the day, we’re glad to have a few 1/1 in the mix, it keeps everyone in our family happy. Who knows with more time and more experience our little 5 year old might be ready for the 5/5.
The point to this game for us is to get out and spend time as family – whether it be searching a 1/1 or a 3/4 or a 5/5.
Just my two cents for what its worth.

Lt Kat

[Green Bay Paddlers]

(I think I speak for Amy – but she’s the boss so I better let her decide for me…)

Agree wholeheartedly with Tony and Carole. As I stated on another post, some days we’re up for the long hike in the woods (Navarino Bob, Lord of the Rings series in Chicago, Wilderness Loop in Green Bay, etc…) and other days it’s fun to do the quick hop out of the car (P.C. Junction, Preble Yell, Tenner’s Bug Motel, etc…). All depends on what the particular day brings.

I have also been pretty vocal about locationless/virtual caches. I love them as well. Fun stuff and it’s something for everyone.

However, GrouseTales stated something beautifully. I hate looking like a stalker or an odd person in some locations, such as urban caches, Chicago Forest Preserves, etc… There hasn’t been enough education of the public yet about geocaching and there are some caches that are a little too public. Make it so the process of finding/logging a cache can at least be somewhat discrete!

I agree with Carole too about the friendships made and beautiful areas found. Caching is a great hobby and we truly would have never met as many great people (at the campout, on the trail, etc…) nor would we have found so many great little hiking nooks around Wisconsin/Illinois had it not been for a GPS and some great websites (geocaching.com/wi-geocaching.com).

Great thread Tony (and GREAT meeting you this past weekend….)

Jeff

[Mama Fishcacher]

quote:

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Originally posted by AstroD-Team:
This is my first post. I am relatively new to geocaching (6 months) and do this as a family sport.
If it wasn’t for the 1/1 finds, this activity would require a babysitter so my hubby and I can go alone and then it would no longer be a family sport. 1/1’s give my 5 year old the opportunity to actually find a cache himself and he doesn’t get bored and whiny that results from spending hours looking for a harder rated cache.
When we’re out caching for the day, we’re glad to have a few 1/1 in the mix, it keeps everyone in our family happy. Who knows with more time and more experience our little 5 year old might be ready for the 5/5.
The point to this game for us is to get out and spend time as family – whether it be searching a 1/1 or a 3/4 or a 5/5.
Just my two cents for what its worth.

Lt Kat

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I completely agree!!!! I save the harder ones for times when my son (just turned 7) isn’t along. Then when he is willing to go, we have some easier ones available that he can find!

My first cache was a 2/2.5 two stage multi that is very close to my home. (If I got on my roof, I bet I could see it!) I thought it was hard! I was thinking I’d hate to try anything harder! But after gaining a bit of experience, I revisited this cache and being at a different time of year, it seemed like a whole new cache to me – the vegetation was totally different and I honestly thought it was a piece of cake…. >blush< And then there are those days when a more difficult cache has you stumped, and I tell ya, an easy find really boosts the morale so you don’t think you’ve *lost the touch*, lol. And you know, we all like different kinds of caches. Some like virtuals, others hate them. Some like multis, others hate them. Some like micros, others hate them. (I’m learning to like the micros, lol!) Fortunately the sport is big enough to have all kinds. And as a sidenote, I thought quite a few of the locationless caches weren’t all that terrible. (Haven’t done one, but looked at them – never heard of a meromictic lake until I stumbled across it on a locationless cache list – VERY cool. Found out my town has THREE places on the National Register of Historic Places. Wouldn’t have found that if I hadn’t seen the locationless cache list.) If every cache was a 4/4, I can tell ya it would get boring after a bit. Many folks would give up out of frustration after not finding caches, or out of boredom since most caches would be the same after awhile. And just because one person thinks a cache is “lame” doesn’t mean a thing to me. It’s more about being out and about, enjoying a beautiful day, finding new parks and places, going for a little hike, having a little fun, and meeting some really nice people instead of spending the day in front of a tv screen. And even better, it gets my whole family involved on occasion. I can honestly say I have yet to find a “lame” cache. But if a cache page said it was a magnet stuck to a guardrail on the side of the road, or a lamppost in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot, I highly doubt I’d even try it. Therefore, I don’t think I’ll ever find a “lame” cache. I invite anyone who has found a “lame” cache to POLITELY ask the owner what the reason for choosing the site was. You just might get a really neat story about it that could completely change your mind about that cache being “lame”. Tony, I applaud you for speaking your mind! (Even if I am feeling clueless as to where this originated from…. Did I miss a post somewhere????) I’m enjoying the discussion though! ~Mama Fishcacher

[Mama Fishcacher]

quote:

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Originally posted by CacheCows:
We respect your right to defend those creating ‘quick’ caches. Some of us on the other hand feel that when one creates and lists a cache there is an inherent responsibility to value the investment in time and resources that geocachers make when they hunt those caches. And when we hunt a cache that obviously had little effort in its placement or design, we frankly feel that the cache’s owner wasted our time. And we feel we have a right to say so…

And in our case, we simply lost 90% of our first year enthusiasm and rarely cache anymore as its too difficult to weed out the quality from the rudimentary caches.

[This message has been edited by CacheCows (edited 05-19-2004).]

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I do see your point here. I have a simple suggestion towards finding the caches of the quality you desire – try sticking with only folks who place caches you like. Geocaching.com allows you to do a search in this manner. Do a search by name of hider based on caches you have enjoyed in the past. To try new cache placers, use the folks who frequent this board! They are very dedicated to geocaching and I’m sure they put lots of thought into their placement just as you do.

I hope you can find a lot of your excitement for geocaching again!

[arffer]

I am still seeing a trend in this thread’s responses that are focusing on defending 1/1 caches. So I will reiterate…

NO ONE IS BASHING 1/1 CACHES
1/1 CACHES DO NOT NEED DEFENDING

The lamenting about lame caches are referring to caches that have little or no effort from the cache creator to put thought into the placement or design of the cache. It has nothing to do with the terrain or deifficulty level, but has everything to do with thought and effort.

1/1 caches are great and serve a needed purpose. We are NOT complaining about 1/1 caches, so please stop defending them like we are attacking them…

[arffer]

Mrs. CacheCow this time.
As I was reading these threads I was getting more and more frustrated that those ‘on the soap box’ were ASSUMING lame caches meant level 1/1 caches. That is in NO WAY true. I think all those lamenting the number of lame caches will agree that the dificulty and terrain level have nothing to do with making a cache lame. There can be 5/5’s that are poor caches and 1/1’s that are great caches.

The first ‘lame’ cache I can remember hitting was somewhere in Illinois. I think it’s name was simply ‘Geocache’. Anyway, no matter what it was rated, I found it lame because here was the caching experience:
1. You try to park near the coordinates – it’s in a Chicago suburb and you don’t want to park in someone’s driveway. No parking coordinates are given and no trails can be found
2. Finally park in front of an old rusted gate hoping it’s legal. No trail can be found, ahead is a wooded area over grown with weeds.
3. Fight through the weeds to enter the woods, which is actuall several garbage strewn over-grown lots. Dark and smelly in the middle of the day.
3. Get within 50 feet of the cache only to discover it is surrounded by briar bushes.
4. Find cache in the center of the briar bushes.

Sounds like fun, huh?

I actually like level 1 and 2 caches. Those cachers who have known me for some time know my caching motto is “I hate brown lines” (as on topo maps). They have heard me mutter it many times on level 3 and 4 terrains. But, ALL caches, including 1/1’s should have a reason for being where they are – other than giving a hider one more ‘hide’ count.

Gee, and this isn’t even my pet peeve. Mine is mis-rated caches. Like at one campout where my daughter and I were looking for a cache rated 1/1 and I told her to stop climbing the bluff because 1/1 meant you could get to it by wheelchair. Well, the hider happened to be there watching a large group look for it and said “Oh, then it’s not a 1/1 like I said”. Sure enough it was about 8 feet up the bluff.

It’s very frustrating to think you’re going after an easy cache and then get a nasty surprise. Once I had a very sore (scraped up and bruised) and was only going after terrains of 1s and 2s so as not to injure it more. Boy was I surprised when a level 2 (supposedly able to ride a bike to) took you over a steep 40 foot bank to the lakes edge with no trails (we checked at least 100 feet in each direction). Yes, it’s my fault I still did it and hurt my leg more, but I hated to make my daughter turn back without finding it after getting all the way to it.

[wzbt03]

Okay I wrote a reply earlier today – read it and it seemed to offer nothing to the discussion, so I deleted it.
Now the subject has been discussed by many and I again have the urge to write but about different things.
First, face it, what Cachecows is saying is very important to the future of caching. We all need to have some more quality to our caches. 1/1’s are fine but lets work harder on making the 1/1’s better thought out and make sure they are really what we rate them – as the Beast says “a 1/1 should be easily accessible to someone in a wheelchair”.

I admit I have put out some “seed” caches to bring people in to do some of what I like – my multi’s – it didn’t work. Everyone did the seed caches (well not quite everyone) and ignored the ones I had put the effort into.

When I started caching in December of 2002, there were about 600 caches or so in Wisconsin and I was the 300th person/team in Wisconsin to get involved (or so says the beast which is gospel to me). I think a large number of the caches I did in my first 100 were as lame as or worse then many of the new ones today. So the “they don’t make em like they used to” saying is not quite true.
What I did find was that certain cachers in the state put out much better caches then others. Those caches, by those people, I tried to seek out and give them a go.

We are a very diverse group in many ways and our wants and needs out of geocaching vary.
These discussions are what will help us all grow, so lets keep them positive and ongoing.

In an email early on in my caching days I asked Cachecows to consider putting back out some more caches as I enjoyed theirs – I repeat my request to them and everyone else who may had their hands in the early days of geocaching – My paraphrase will go like this:

“Show a geocacher a cache and they will enjoy the day, Teach them how you make a great hide and they will be hooked for a lifetime”

Forgetting where it all started would be a crime but failing to see the vision of where it can be is worse.

Face it, we are all one family and if you look around, you will see a bit of yourself in all of us.

[WISearchers]

[Author]

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