Step up on Tony’s Soap box.

[Green Bay Paddlers]

I frequent a lot of hunting/fishing forums and the one thing that everyone agrees about is that we all need to stick together. Anti-hunters have time and time again taken advantage of the divide between sportsmen in the past. Hunters disagree with trapping. Catch-and-release fishermen disagree with those who choose to keep a fish supper. Deer hunters can be subdivided into at least five different groups who all disagree with other. Baiting being the number one issue.

Geocachers are in the same boat. We, as an organization, need to stick together and identify the major threats to our hobby.

1. Educate the public as to what geocaching is all about.

2. Enforcement of rules that we can all live by. One twelve year old gets killed by a train while hunting for a cache and it’s game over for all of us in the press!

3. Maintaining the environment. Cache in – Trash Out, removing caches with well-worn trails to their spots creating a negative impact on the environment and getting those old, soggy tupperware containers (abandoned caches) out of our wilderness! I read a book on mountain biking years ago that required the reader to agree to “only leave behind waffle prints…”. The environmental issues are the most important. Low-impact wilderness experience is critical!

The way I see it, we are at a crucial junction in our hobby. We need to stick together and allow geocaching to flourish. I’ve been a member (and leader) of far too many clubs where in-fighting just causes everyone to lose.

Healthy debate is good… but let’s keep focused on the end goal. The public is really starting to respond to caching. Articles are being published and word of mouth is spreading. Everything I read on the net tells me that the WGA is a major leader in the COUNTRY in the area of geocaching. (Once again Wisconsin needs to carry the progressive label for the country!) Let’s rally and keep spreading the news about this GREAT hobby!…

(Okay… I’m off my soapbox now and putting my pom poms down….)

Jeff

[arffer]

Good morning all, glad to see the air’s been cleared on the lame vs. 1/1 issue

Slightly off topic, but as VCs have been raised a couple of times on this thread, I’d like to just toss out my opinion.

During the months I was one of the geocaching.com approvers, the topic of virtual caches came up so often that they were eventually suspended while Jeremy worked on spinning them off to another area of the web site.

In a nutshell, the overwhelming opinion, to which I concurr also, is that GEO – CACHING is about two things:
GEO – location, somewhere, someplace
CACHING – a cache, container, contents (at least a log book)

It all got started with an ammobox out in the woods in Oregon. Without the container, all you have is the GEO.

So, we took the approach that if your purpose was to take someone to an interesting place or location, to show off your favorite spot, but not to place a cache at that spot for whatever reason, then you were submitting that spot to the wrong website.

There is already a website dedicated to the locating of interesting/beautiful/unique places by GPS. Its called http://www.waypoint.org so when a geocacher submitted a cache that had no physical cache, we reminded them that if they wished to show off a location byt not include a cache, then they should instead submit it to that site, and not gc.com

So, that’s my $0.02 worth on VCs.

[Ms. WISearcher]

I thought that I would take a quick moment to reply. In my opinion, I see the issue as a matter of judgement. I do not feel comfortable placing judgements on others or on others’ opinions/ideas/creativity.

What to some may be “lame” (and I really don’t like that word), to others may be meaningful.

I know that there are extreme situations where there are communities that have placed a huge numbers of caches that don’t seem to be placed for any reason other than placing a cache to help increse numbers…and we had experienced this in a recent out of state trip…and I know that ‘Lil Otter mentioned recently that she had a similar experience.

I don’t think that those are the types of situations that peole in our state are referring to. I feel so lucky to be a part of such an active state and one that shows concern for more than numbers (yes, numbers can be fun).

I see the real issue being that there are people that feel that it is fine to judge others as though their ideas are better or more important…I do not think this is a practice that anyone should do…I will not judge anyone for doing it…I will just not do it.

I recently had the experience where I completed a cache that wasn’t at all enjoyable for me…while chatting with other cachers I found that one of them really had enjoyed and shared reasons…I am glad that I didn’t ruin this cacher’s experience by sharing what I had thought of it prior…who am I to judge? I am simply a member of this community…moreover, I hope that I give a lot to it…I hope my caches bring you to worthy locations…I hope not to waste anyone’s time.

I amazed at how often I am humbled in this activity…one would think that after getting a few caches under one’s belt that you have an idea about the way things work…I am humbled almost everytime I go out by others’ creativity and the beauty of places that I get to see.

I know that I will continue to encounter caches or areas that are fabulous…and ones that will make me question what the cache placer’s intention was in bringing me to an area…but I chose not to judge…it is not my place.

oh, and for the record I was quite surprised that Tony started this thread…but I thank him for giving me a platform for sharing opinions openly…without judgement.

my .02
Ms. WISearcher

[arffer]

Going way off topic now, I’m curious as to where and when the trend towards being non-judgemental rose. I don’t recall when individual judgement became politically incorrect.

I go to an art gallery, and while I don’t have a single atom of artistic ability in my body, I still personally judge each artwork I examine. And I feel free to do so, and to express my judgements to anyone who cares to listen. I like this work, I don’t like this other work.

And the person next to me may indeed have a totally different basis for their judgement, and come to opposing conclusions, but they still have the right to judge the artwork and express that judgement to anyone who cares to listen.

So while you may choose not to judge the quality of a cache, why do you feel that you are disqualified to judge it because it is not your place to do so?

I personally feel I have every right in the world to judge anything I wish. No one has to listen to me nor care about my judgements, but I don’t see where we all lost our inherent place to render judgements.

I judge movies I see, meals I eat, cars I drive, and caches I hunt.

[WISearchers]

[wzbt03]

One quick thought on the “do what has not been done” idea.
I am sure there are very few original ideas out there but probably some. Most of us find a particular cache we like in a different part of the state and want to put one out like that closer to home. I think this is great.
I was contacted by three different groups that were interested in doing a “Capture the Flag” type series in their communities like we started in Rock County. I have been contacted by other cachers in our state asking if it was okay for them to put out a cache similiar to one I had done in their own areas.
How great is that!

As far as the COTM that I have out there that was kinding voted for, it is just my attempt at making a Jeff Thorson cache in Janesville. Granted we all add our own little twist but those that have done mine probably will see a lot of Thorson in it.
I borrowed one idea for a cache from a Trudy & the Beast cache, one from a Socko cache and I have had some which I think are original as I have never seen some like them.

The same people that put out some of the “lame” caches, in my opinion, tend to surprise me every once in a while and put out some of my favorite hides, so I have learned to take the good with the bad.

One thing I do believe is that we all should give our own opinion on the caches we do when recording our comments. I tend to do so and it has gotten me a couple of emails from the owner telling me that I was being too real in my comments.
I believe it was in a Erle Stanley Gardner novel that Perry Mason stated you should never leave a tip at a restaurant unless you take the trouble to thank the waitress.
In this case perhaps you should never leave a comment unless you say what you really feel.

[greyhounder]

This has been a good discussion for someone (like me) who is just starting to place caches.

My biggest worry is that my caches will be lame. And I really hope that if one of mine is, you will be just as honest as you are here and let me know.

A few weeks back I was trying to rush to put out a whole bunch of hides, just so there were more caches in Jefferson County. But I slowed myself down so that I could really get a chance to evaluate what I was doing. I still plan on more hides in my area, but some will have to be of the challenging hide variety, and therefore may take longer in the planning stages.

And I agree, it’s nice to have this forum for voicing opinions!

Bec

[The Lil Otter]

[OuttaHand]

I’ll toss in my 2pennies’ worth here.

I will be the first to admit that my first hide was one of the “Look-I-own-a-cache!” variety. It’s on the side of the road at our cabin up north. Whoopeee!
Since then, I believe my other caches have brought people to a couple places that they would not otherwise have been aware of. Very interesting places, at that.
I don’t understand those that, perhaps after ONE “Look-I-own-a-cache”-type hide, insist upon placing more of them. I would think that after having found 10 – 20 caches, one would get the idea of what makes the difference between a ‘good’ hide and a ‘bad’ one.
I, too, am afraid that soon we will be looking at a micro in every Walmart parking lot. I don’t like the sound of that, but it seems to be on the horizon. And I don’t see why that has to be!
We are blessed with a state that is rich in terrific, scenic places! Look around you! Down here where I live, we have an incredibly scenic area called the Kettle Moraine. Now it is true that there are already many fine caches in there. But, given the 1/10 mile rule, there would seem to be PLENTY of fine areas yet to explore. Areas that would provide not only a very scenic hike, but locations a-plenty for a terrific HIDE.
I know — I’m getting dangerously close to the other similar thread. But even if someone were to place a cache just 200′ into the hike of one of the areas’ nice trails (thereby not introducing the ‘hike’ factor) it would still be possible to place a nicely hidden cache. Something with a little originality in the choice of container; Something with a unique theme; perhaps a tricky night-only cache, etc. etc.
What it all comes down to is simple: If everyone (who wants to) hides something that provides something more than adding one to your find count, this can remain a very interesting state in which to cache!

[Cathunter]

Although I don’t like the idea of a bunch of caches popping up in parking lots, the problem is that if there is one, there will be copycats. I have not seen any real problems in WI- yet.

I’ve heard a lot of interesting comments, but few suggestions on how to prevent large numbers of poorly executed cache placements.

What would Jeremy Irish say if told that we wanted justification for each cache placement? A “board of approvers” would be elected to vote on each placement. A stricter set of placement rules would have to be written and posted.

Another idea mentioned in the past was the cache rating system. The first X number of finders rate the cache on a 1 to 5 scale using a few pre-written questions. Pocket queries should be able to filter caches based off their rating.

As for virtuals, I think they are fine. I also think that if it is possible to place a real cache, there is no reason for it to be a virtual. That is what the rule is. Virtuals are still allowed- if it is not physically possible to place a real cache.

More importantly, set the example! When you write a cache page for your own hide, make it descriptive enough so that each user can determine if it is something that they want to hunt. When posting a find, tell the cache owner what you really think.

Everyone has their own idea of what makes a cache “worthwhile”.

The sport will be around a long time. Whether it becomes lame or not depends on us.

[This message has been edited by Cathunter (edited 05-22-2004).]

[The Lil Otter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by OuttaHand:
I will be the first to admit that my first hide was one of the “Look-I-own-a-cache!” variety. It’s on the side of the road at our cabin up north. Whoopeee!

---

Why would you think that was a ‘crappy’ first cache?? I remember EVERY moment of that drive there and your land.. what was so cool about it was that YOU decided to share a bit of your world with us all.. The important thing was your excitement about why you wished a cache there.. all those memories you had and wished to share with us.. It had personality..

I’ll drive a hundred miles to see a painted rock on the side of the road that has ‘some’ memory behind it.. I am not bashing these type of hides at all.. I love them (smiles) My best memories are when others allow me a peek into their world.

As proof.. here’s my best memory log from my latest trip.. Double Rainbow Cache GCGBHF http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0faa56ae-3d7b-4c4c-83d0-06aea0b8923e

~The Lil Otter

[Ray]

Let’s take another look at this argument.

Enough of us have tired of roadside virtuals, so we have now banned Verts.

Some of us have tired of the cache in the parking lot, let’s ban those.

Soon we will tire of film cannisters,
then pill bottles, and then rubber maid, then tupperware…. and ammoboxes.

Admittedly this is drawing the argument through a slippery slope to an absurd conclusion, but isn’t this where it is headed?

There is presently enough variety to please each of us. If there is a type of cache that I don’t care to seek, I will look for another.

tb

[Mama Fishcacher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Lil Otter:
As proof.. here’s my best memory log from my latest trip.. Double Rainbow Cache GCGBHF http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0faa56ae-3d7b-4c4c-83d0-06ae a0b8923e [/B]

---

Oh wow! That is one amazing story!!! How beautiful!

~Mama Fishcacher

[Mama Fishcacher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trudy & the beast:
Let’s take another look at this argument.

Enough of us have tired of roadside virtuals, so we have now banned Verts.

Some of us have tired of the cache in the parking lot, let’s ban those.

Soon we will tire of film cannisters,
then pill bottles, and then rubber maid, then tupperware…. and ammoboxes.

Admittedly this is drawing the argument through a slippery slope to an absurd conclusion, but isn’t this where it is headed?

There is presently enough variety to please each of us. If there is a type of cache that I don’t care to seek, I will look for another.

tb

---

Exactly how I feel!!! Thanks for finding the words for it!

~Mama Fishcacher

[arffer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cathunter:
More importantly, set the example! When you write a cache page for your own hide, make it descriptive enough so that each user can determine if it is something that they want to hunt. When posting a find, tell the cache owner what you really think.

---

I concurr with Cathunter’s suggestion. Especially the second part. If those of us that hunt a cache wrote more than just TNLN and actually gave a review of what we liked and didn’t like about the hunt/find, then the rest of us would have something to go on in deciding if we also wanted to hunt it.

Yes, this does require those that post logs to be judgemental, but we should be frank in our assessment (while not being purposfully mean). Sure, we’ll probably tick off the occasional cache owner that thinks their dumpster cache should win COTM, but the rest of us will appreciate the reviews, especially if we see a trend.

Unfortunatly, there are too few Wisconsin cachers reading this thread, and possibly even fewer agreeing with this idea to actually make much of a difference.

Many loggers eaither don’t want to take the time to write an informative log, or are too afraid of being objective enough to point out anything negative. But we can hope

[Author]

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