The future of multiple “attended” logs for WGA events

[MajorBrat]

The WGA is not the only state doing these types of events, and we are not the only ones having trouble w/ deciding how best to approach the logs. We are however the ones being made examples of. This bothered me at first because it felt like the rest of the Geocaching community was picking on us. At some point (docapi’s mentioned thread) Bob and I were singled out as the “bad guys” and many people piped in on their version of what he and I should be doing with our logs. We went back and forth for a bit in an attempt to justify what we were doing, but then we figured a couple of things out.

First: Most of the people who were commenting spent more time in front of their computer screens than on an actual trail (I even posted stats on the thread…oh yes, that really ticked them off!). The ones who were out caching didn’t seem to care what we were doing.

We spent a lot of time dealing w/ emails from other cachers. The end result? After the guy who started the thread took a good look at what we were really doing at our events he got over himself and posted a note in our favor. He apologized via email and went on with his life. Others however kept the thread going. Bob and I had already walked away from it.

Second: We know what is put in to every cache we log. We know that it was a matter of someone hiding it, giving up some numbers for a GPSR input, a walk, a hunt, and a hootie. So for us that means one thing. A LOG on our groundspeak page.

Bob and I attended an event last month in Bloomington/Normal, IL (GCP11V). There were a number of temporary hides there. At the time of the event they were attempting to acquire approval of a page they could use to log these hides, as well as future CIGA event hides. It didn’t go through so they did what has been done by others. They hid a permanent micro (GCPET4) and all temps were logged on that page. The micro will remain but future seekers will only log one find. After talking w/ several of their board members (they’re caching buddies of ours), we learned that this is what CIGA plans to do for each event. (Team Badger has used a similar method to commemorate gatherings.)

Missouri, Texas, Florida…many states, many methods…

From my view: Only a cache owner can govern how and when a cache may be logged. They are the ones who set the rules for the cache. If the cache owner allows 1 find or 100 finds…who cacres?! If you were there, you saw the logbook (stamp, sticker), put your name/mark in the appropriate spot then…log it! The only time I have issue w/ a log is if the person didn’t see the cache…in the physical sense! A no find is a no find! (well said by the way, Bec)

After much babbling on, I seem to have forgotten to make my point, so here goes. If you found it, log it…if you choose! (Some of us haven’t even logged all the permanents, right Socko?)

MB

[Commander Bob]

Although my communications officer (AKA: MajorBrat) has already stated some opinions on this subject, I feel the need to bring up a few of my own concerns.

First off, I’m wondering what compelled the board to consider this change to begin with. Is it because of outside opinion (read disagreement, disapproval, etc.) from cachers who have never attended a WGA event? What we do as the WGA should be of and about the members of the WGA and to heck with what others think. I attempted to give credibility to our practice on the GC message boards, with less than stellar results. The majority of those opposed to the practice shared one common belief, that we were only doing it as a way to inflate our numbers. As wrong as that view may be, it may appear so to others. The only practical solution is to have a specific category for temporary event caches, but seeing as how TPTB have categorically denied such a solution, we are left with our present dilemma. Either we do away with logging temporaries altogether, or we continue to circumvent the system by logging multiple attended logs on our event pages. Many people have read into the decision to change event caches from “found” to “attended” to mean Jeremy Irish doesn’t want temporary caches to be logged, which is not the case. Here is his official quote:

“To get into step with Cache In Trash Out events, I have added two log types, “Attended” and “Will Attend” to allow people to RSVP for events and to log them once the event has occurred.
The “Attended” log type counts as a “find” so the “Found It” item (which didn’t really make sense anyway) has been removed”

There was no hidden agenda against stopping temporary event cache logs. Jeremy also had this to say:

“Temp caches aren’t allowed on the site. And as I indicated in countless threads in the past, I think logging attended twice for an event is stupid, and posting additional logs to “match” whatever “count” you determined your numbers should be is equally stupid. However I have no plans to be the point police and create complicated rules for determining what counts as a find.
That is up to the cache listing owner to decide.”

They neither care to nor wish to be involved in this discussion, and I have to agree with them that it should be left up to the individual cache owner to decide how logs are permitted. What we don’t need is more rules telling us how we should or shouldn’t play our “game”. (Apologies to Cathunter)

My second concern is about the events themselves. Like it or not, the opportunity to gain significant numbers is an appealing draw to many cachers. With today’s demands on everyone’s time, many families have to choose carefully how they spend their free time. Not to mention the extra time and gas it takes to drive hours from home to attend an event. Sure the camaraderie is great, but there is a common ground to everyone who attends, the opportunity to do something we all love to do…find caches! We are all Geocachers first and foremost. It’s what we love to do. It’s what we talk about. It’s what we eat, sleep and breathe! Well ok, maybe some more so than others, but you get the point. For many of us, it’s the opportunity to share the hunt while socializing at the same time, the rare opportunity to meet friends from opposite sides of the state. But take away the hunts, and it’s nothing more than a social occasion that many people will just take a pass on. I can’t speak for others, but I know every WGA event I attend, I make sure to drop some money in the donation box, for all the hard work and expense that creating these events costs. I’m sure a drop in attendance will be felt hardest there as well.

Finally, I’d like to suggest what seems to me to be the second best solution. A LOTEC page. For those that are unfamiliar, LOTEC stands for Log Only Temporary Event Cache. Basically it’s a cache page created specifically for logging temporary event caches. It would be created by the WGA just like a regular cache page, so there would be the found it smiley when you log your finds instead of the attended icon. The cache page would be activated the day of the event, then temporarily disabled a few days afterwards, giving everyone an opportunity to log their finds, and preventing the “phantom” cache from appearing in pocket queries. The page can then be activated and disabled as needed for future events. I believe this is exactly what Missouri does. I think it’s the best alternative to what seems to be a flaw in the system. Those that choose to log temporaries may do so on this page, those that choose not to may just ignore it. I believe its best left up to the individual cacher.

My vote is to keep our present policy, and let the people choose for themselves, not dictate what they can and cannot do.

Commander Bob

[sbukosky]

Well! I’m happy to see that being in lockstep with Jeremey is being challenged by more than myself. Welcome aboard people! Geocaching is bigger than geocaching.com and WGA IS geocaching in Wisconsin!

For the topic, Yes we should continue to log each and every temporary cache of a recognized event. It is what most people enjoy.

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Steve Bukosky
Waukesha

[Opossum]

I think Jeremy has a good point: geocaches should be able to be found by everyone. Perhaps the language he used in getting his point across is out of frustration in repeatedly trying to get his point across. Permanent caches help keep people from forming self-absorbed snobbish sub-groups. I was going to use the example of how some WGA members comment about everything that doesn’t find favor in their eyes, but then remembered why I don’t read the GC boards.

Many made the point that WGA events are a lot of fun because of the temporary hides. Some people see temps as “stupid” because of the vast amount of effort wasted on placing and removing hides that are temporary. Others see temporaries as elitist, as only people in the WGA are able to hunt the caches. Others see it as a way to increase find statistics. Others have other complaints. However, WGA events are publicly posted and open to everyone. The overwhelming majority of attendees hunt the caches because, well, they’re fun! WGA events have a great turnout and the members are enthusiastic. If you want to socialize, you can team up with whomever you want, if you can keep up with them. Caches that couldn’t normally be done are now possible. You can try out a new GPS live in the field before you buy it, thanks to those enthusiastic members. There are so many reasons to have temporary caches I’m just going to stop here, because I could never list them all.

Commander Bob mentioned the gas savings. That, and everything I just mentioned is really off-topic, but I’ll admit these are all reasons to have temporary caches, so let me continue with that for just a moment. A lot of people don’t think driving around to find parking is fun. Many people have stated how gas and tires become an expense after a while. Other people say this is part of the hunt and were pretty direct in voicing this opinion when I said how much I and the dogs hate driving around needlessly, so I’m going to be just as direct: If you want to drive around aimlessly, do it on Sunday morning and clog up traffic with the rest of the old folks. The rest of us have a life to get on with.

Getting back to the topic at hand, temporary caches should be luggable. While statistics aren’t the reason to attend WGA events, they should accurately reflect your efforts in the sport. (What? I said “luggable?” I said “loggable,” didn’t I? That just shows how much I hate driving around for no reason. Aren’t those the same people who complain about cars ruining the environment anyway? Thanks Mole, I’m so far off topic…)

Getting back from Mole’s interruption, the find statistics are supposed to be a reflection of how many geocaches you’ve found. While Jeremy Irish may not see it this way, he also gives us the leeway to do what we want, which is great. I think the WGA should give the same option, to log events multiple times if we want. For some people, myself included, it just might balance out the numbers for all the finds I signed the log book on and didn’t have time to log online. Speaking of which, I’m going to go do that now. (Another interruption from Mole.) I’m going to go do that after I post the hints I promised for my caches. (pause) I’m going to do that after I post hints and get some remodeling done. (Mole is such a sweetie.)

Opossum of Mole_n_Opossum

[laughing] (that was SO off-topic)

[Folk Trakers]

This has been a real stumper for Mrs. Traker and myself. We have attended events in other states that had temp hides…with the exception of MOGA the hides were not that good…in fact that is where we first saw the infamous ‘pocket caches.’ We have taken the position on our own that while at events we no longer log caches that we did not find with our GPS…examples are the ‘fido cache’, the ‘pocket cache’, or the ‘chop stick cache’…if you want to log them then go right ahead but we will not.

It is NOT up to the cacher to decide whether to log it or not it is up to the person/team that is responsible for the cache to decide who can log what. We have done multi caches that took all day (8+ hours) and only were allowed to log it once by the owner. We have also done traditional caches that allowed you to log the extra bonus cache at the coordinates listed inside. The owner of the cache is the one who decides who can log what.

So the WGA board is asking us what we want to do for OUR events. I would like to thank Brian for asking us. The Board could have just acted without our input but they have not, so THANK YOU.

We love the WGA events and we feel that we should not yield to those that have never attended one of our events. Our organization is by far one of the best in the country and we should all be very proud of that fact. The temp hides we have are amazing and could be caches on their own but we usually make arrangements to ‘leave no trace’ in the park. We will continue to log the temp finds as long as they are allowed. We have suggested the use of LOTEC. We have seen it used in MO and it works very well. Since you log all of your temp finds on the LOTEC page it shows up as caches in your stats instead of events.

With all of this being said, the events are truly amazing, but it may be time for our organization to make a change. I feel that the time has come for us to say adieu to temp caches at the WGA events. Our events are no longer events they are cache trips only with temp caches instead of real ones.

Do any of you remember T&tb’s breakfast events? The purpose of an event is for us to get together and share stories, ideas, and information. Afterward we can head out as a group or individually and take in the local caches in the area…sometimes placed there because of the upcoming event. It is a chance for us (Folk Trakers) to get to a different part of the state and see what you guys are doing there. The WGA has gotten so large that the events are less social and more temps…primarily to reduce clustering at the hides. Maybe I’m the only one (Mrs. Traker is unsure of my thoughts) but I think we should look at alternatives to the way we are doing things?

I know this isn’t the clearest of posts but it is how I (Mr. Traker) feel. As long as the temps are there and loggable, we will log them. I’m just hoping that we will start to see a few more true events in our future.

The views expressed in this post are those of Mr. Traker only. While the use of Folk Trakers is authorized for Mr. Traker he does not necessarily speak for Folk Trakers. Mrs. Traker does not purport to endorse or deny these thoughts. All rights of deniability are those of Mrs. Traker. Should she feel that her thoughts would be more appropriate, she will post at that time and the thoughts in this post will become irrelevant.

[EnergySaver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Opossum:
Others see temporaries as elitist, as only people in the WGA are able to hunt the caches. … However, WGA events are publicly posted and open to everyone.

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I’m really surprised and confused that anyone would make that comment. As you state, the whole world can see the event listings on GC. In fact our event on 4/30/05, was in my estimation, attended by people that 1/3 of them have zero involvement with WGA. I feel the whole reason we had such high attendance (about 190 people) was the fact that the regular WGA crowd came PLUS newer and semi-local geocachers that have no WGA involvement. I have regular or semi-regular contact with about 8 geocaching families that have never gone to the WGA website, but attended the event.

[LightningBugs Mum]

My $.02:

The WGA event temps are excellent and each one deserves a find. But they really should be at least .1 miles apart.

Now for my personal experience:

My first event was last year’s picnic. When I signed up to go, I thought we would get the one event smiley and that was it. And I was expecting it to be a primarily social event. When I realized there would be lots of loggable temps, the whole situation changed. Sure, I met some great people – two of whom are still friends and caching partners today. But, except for lunch and picture time, most people (including us) were out after the caches. At the campout, the experience was pretty much the same. I’m not saying this is bad. I just don’t see the WGA events as *primarily* social. If I really want to meet fellow cachers and get to know them, I have found the small events with few or no temps to be much more effective.

My second $.02:
If the WGA chooses to make their events one-log-only, then they should stop hiding the temps. We will still come, but we will see it as a social – not a caching – event. In other words, I agree with CacheCows above.

My third $.02:
The WGA should not feel pressured from outside influences. If people from other parts of the country want to gripe about these events, they should come to an event to do it.

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Team LightningBugs
* * * * * * * * * *

[Cache_boppin_BunnyFuFu]

quote:

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Originally posted by Uncle_Fun:
1 Find=1 Log!

End of story.

Uncle_Fun

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I’m with Uncle_Fun…..well not WITH him, but with the idea!

[shrek and fiona]

why are the ansewers so long

if you find it you can log it

[Grandma & Grandpa]

We like cache hunting, and introducing newcomers (especially kids) to geocaching. We watch our count, but the numbers are not the object. Some caches which are convenient or really cool we’ve been to several times.

But a new find is a find, regardless of where it occurs. Every temp found at an event is worthy of being included in the count, if the finder wishes.

Our $0.02 worth. Thanks for listening.

Grandma & Grandpa

[kbraband]

quote:

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Originally posted by sbukosky:
Well! I’m happy to see that being in lockstep with Jeremey is being challenged by more than myself.

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First of all, I like Jeremy Irish. I think he has the best interests of geocaching at heart.

Secondly, my stance of multiple logs of temp caches at WGA events is: Log ’em all if you want to. You earned them.

Personally, we don’t log all our found temps at events. We log once per event. However, I have no problem with those who do log each find.

[waukesha wizards]

I think each team should decide what is good for there team. Many teams say numbers don’t matter, but for us it is everything. Having two boys (8 and 6) they like the competition, of who can we pass or where do we rank. If this works to keep them from playing video games or watching tv; we will do it.
We love events and have meet many great pepole, but the “finds” are our reason for the events. The boys say that I do to much talking and not enough finding.
So we vote keep it the way it is now. If it is not broke, why fix it. Don’t fall to the pressure.

[Ray]

I believe that the members of the board have a good feel of the wishes of the membership from the comments above. Thank you for your input. I think it may be time to close this thread. ~tb

[kbraband]

quote:

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Originally posted by Trudy & the beast:
I believe that the members of the board have a good feel of the wishes of the membership from the comments above. Thank you for your input. I think it may be time to close this thread. ~tb

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Why? What’s the harm in letting members voice their opinions, espcially when the discussion has been so courteous and well-reasoned?

[Green Bay Paddlers]

Amy and I have attended one WGA event. It was incredibly well run and the temp cache hides were better than the majority of the “regular” ones we have found out in the wild.

Our humble opinion is that each temp cache should be worth a log (find) entry. If geocaching.com decides to eliminate that option, then so be it. It wouldn’t be the first time we disagreed with “corporate headquarters.” We still disagree with G.COM about their stance on virtual caches. As the woods get inundated with soaked Tupperware containers, we would love to see more “environmentally-friendly” virtual caches allowed – especially in the urban areas.

The WGA should do what they want to do. Amy and I haven’t really been in this for the numbers anyway. We could care less. It’s more for the hobby. However, we know folks that really get into the number of logs and want each cache to be an entry. They deserve the right to do so…

Just our two cents worth. Best to everyone!

Jeff & Amy
Green Bay Paddlers.

[This message has been edited by Green Bay Paddlers (edited 08-04-2005).]

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