Tours – what exactly are they?

[AstroDon]

Seldom,

Thank you for your reply. It makes things a bit clearer and put things in perspective for me. Lately I feel if I’ve gone caching with my friends or even my family (not even in the Fox Valley or specifically for puzzles), I’ve been targeted as a “tour” groupee). And it has soured me to the WGA, all it’s members, and geocaching as a whole.

I know when I go group cache (it IS fun), my idea is to go to an area that most of us have not done, and make a clear route to caches to reduce driving time and backtracking to find as many caches that none of us have found in the area as possible. Caches up for grabs are all types – trads, multis, off-sets, puzzles in the field etc. From my understanding then – that seems to be OK and is not considered a tour.

I know next week, I will be taking my son to find caches we’ve found as family years ago so he can sign his own caching name in the book and properly log it. As well as finding caches neither of us have found either. Now I’m not sure if that would be a tour as he was around the first time we found them as a family (but didn’t have his own caching name), and I don’t lead him to the cache (He does pretty well with the GPSR on his own). Will there be puzzles on the list – yes. But only ones that neither of us have found and I slaved over solving on my own.

In either case, I think for the first time I have a better idea of where the issues are and what they are. I still intend to cache with friends and in groups cause solo caching just plain sucks. But just maybe, I may be more aware of the COs feelings and intent and how I respond to it. (and, hopefully, COs will do the same).

Darn – I thought it was logged in as AstroD-Team. This is Kat posting, not Don.

[gotta run]

@Team Black-Cat wrote:

Doesn’t PM mean “private message”?

Since my PMs have been posted to various forums here I simply assumed it was common practice.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Team Black-Cat]

@gotta run wrote:

@Team Black-Cat wrote:

Doesn’t PM mean “private message”?

Since my PMs have been posted to various forums here I simply assumed it was common practice.

Ok, but since you requested that the sender not contact you on the subject, one could assume that you don’t want to discuss it further. Why drag it into the public forums?

[gotta run]

Because, number one, it answered Kat’s question in my mind and I felt that people deserved a chance to see the kind of attitude that we are continually subjected to “behind the scenes.” Because it would be just great if people would stop doing stuff just because they knew it would **** somebody off.

Cache together, that’s fine, whatever. But don’t post bogus events on the WGA website mocking puzzle cache owners’ concerns (happened last summer, remember?). Don’t make taunting logs when you bushwhack a puzzle cache you couldn’t solve. Don’t tell me I don’t have the right to place puzzle caches until I find X number of caches. Don’t use the WGA forums and the WGA message function to harrass people and then tell me that I’m the one being inflammatory!!!

So no, I do not want to be contacted with any MORE emails or PMs (because believe me it has been more than one).

If I was in the wrong by attempting to bring this example/illustration into the open, I just don’t see it, and I’m not sorry that I did.

On the Left Side of the Road...

[TyeDyeSkyGuy]

Wow this topic and several other related ones of recent, seems to really be getting personal to so many people. Is the WGA turning into GONIL? Let’s hope not.

Geocaching should be a fun sport. It used to be. But lately it’s filled with politics, bashing, complaining and a lot of BS. Yeah, I said it because no one else has.

I’m not putting any single person or group down. I’d just ask that everyone at the WGA take a step back, take a deep breath and try to make this sport their own. Do what you like to do, they way you want to do it (within the guidelines) while doing your best to respect the wishes of other cachers. It’s really not that hard folks.

Smile, it’s a beautiful day. How about getting out and trying some caching??? 😀 😀 😀

Flame away, I can take it.

[seldom|seen]

@TyeDyeSkyGuy wrote:

Smile, it’s a beautiful day. How about getting out and trying some caching??? 😀 😀 😀

Better still, grab a rake and uncover your blanketed Hostas, they’ll thank you for it. Nice to see all that green poking through. Spring is a time of rebirth and rejuvination and I think I speak for many when I say we’re ready to move on.

But, having ignited much of this vitriol with fan in hand, I do want to see some kind of resolution with all the blood still drying on the floor. Nothing worse than a battle with no clear outcome for the better. I don’t know what it is, just yet, maybe a little forgive (without the forget) and some tightly crossed fingers that with all the attention the act of ….ing, or whatever you care to call it, has as least shed some little light on a troubling aspect of the sport for more than a few. Maybe that’s the best I can hope for and maybe it’s enough to get reasonable, likeable, decent cachers to think twice about just what short-logging puzzles means to CO’s and everyone else watching.

And lastly, while I’m not at one with the voice of the BOD, I am at least very grateful that someone is listening out there.

[TyeDyeSkyGuy]

@seldom|seen wrote:

@TyeDyeSkyGuy wrote:

Smile, it’s a beautiful day. How about getting out and trying some caching??? 😀 😀 😀

Maybe that’s the best I can hope for and maybe it’s enough to get reasonable, likable, decent cachers

Reasonable, likable, decent cachers. It wasn’t that long ago that we ALL were just that. What happened??? And what happened to respectable?

[jerrys dad]

@TyeDyeSkyGuy wrote:

Geocaching should be a fun sport. It used to be. But lately it’s filled with politics, bashing, complaining and a lot of BS. Yeah, I said it because no one else has.

Smile, it’s a beautiful day. How about getting out and trying some caching??? 😀 😀 😀

Flame away, I can take it.

None here, good job!

[marc_54140]

If you say something often enough, does it become true?

Seldom, as usual, is spouting off facts and concepts for which he has not proof. He makes wild allegations just to support his ideas.

Take what he says, and everyone for that matter, with a grain of salt.

And Barry, while we are on the topic of not having the facts straight, I have conducted several WSQ Tours to cover your cemetery caches.

[-cheeto-]

Everyone is focusing on the tour aspect of a bigger topic. It is unfortunate because the real focus should be that everyone should attempt to complete a cache as it was designed and want to do that. We should want to play as a cache owner intends. The cache owner is who sets up our “game board” so to speak.

How does a cache owner intend for me to play?

We don’t have to read a cache owner’s mind to know that if there was a puzzle put in place that they wanted you to solve the puzzle as part of finding that cache. If not, they would have published some other type of cache.

We shouldn’t be looking for ways to shortcut. We should be looking for caches that appeal to what we want to get out of participating!

Yeah, on occasion everyone shortcuts. We walk across ice. We send our kids up a tree or into a rabbit hole. We have our spouse solve a Sudoku. We can all admit to playing this way from time to time but it certainly is not how most of us want to play all the time.

I love every aspect of attempting to play the game as it is intended by the owner of each cache and being able to choose not to participate if a particular cache doesn’t appeal to me.

What is the geocaching experience for you?

[Barry Butrymowicz]

Now Lamers Bus lines is getting into the act

http://www.lamerstour.com/user_documents/2010%20Mystery%20Tour.PDF

[CodeJunkie]

@marc_54140 wrote:

If you say something often enough, does it become true?

Seldom, as usual, is spouting off facts and concepts for which he has not proof. He makes wild allegations just to support his ideas.

Take what he says, and everyone for that matter, with a grain of salt.

OK – I can’t hold my comment / tongue any longer, but first I’ll say this. I enjoy all varieties of puzzle caches and both Marc, Seldom|Seen, Cheeto, Sagasu, GizFinder and many others in the Fox Valley area have some good, some not so good, some real head scratchers where you have to figure out how the CO was thinking etc. It’s just too bad that we can’t all just respect everyone (thanks TyeDyeSkyGuy for your statement) and move on.

I’m not taking sides, but can provide factual proof of the allegations made by S|S. I’m volunteered for the last Appleton tour with a note to Marc specifically stating that I was only going to log finds for puzzles I found. I supplied Marc a list of GC #’s and Titles of the puzzles I solved and nothing more (to my knowledge). In return I was provided a GSAK file complete with final coordinates for not just the puzzles I had provided, but many others. I’d actually have to dig up the email to get all the exact facts, but that’s the basics. I actually intended to go on the tour as planned, but my wife ended up with a new job and had to work that morning, so I stayed home and played dad which was a blast (but did get to do some solo caching later in the day). The original email has also been provided to at least one board member who I believe was going to address the issue with the board.

There’s the details. Some will call me out as a rat / mole, some a hero, and some maybe just don’t care. My parents raised me to always tell the truth even when it may get me into trouble. So like, TyeDyeSkyGuy, I have big shoulders and if you feel the need to flame me so be it. But at least the truth is now out and hopefully that clears up the confusion.

Me personally – I only log what I solve / find (many of you know this and I can prove), I enjoy getting out with others periodically (but I generally go solo), and I’d like to see everyone just get along.

[Todd300]

@sweetlife wrote:

There comes a time when the WGA should step in and start to censor its forums. Starting from the actions of one cacher who promotes his “tours” (puzzles or any other)in these forums. There now have been 3 or 4 other cachers who have begun to archive/adopt many or all of their caches. I understand freedom of speech, but when it starts to ruin the sport by breaking “unwritten rules” maybe the WGA should not let these promotions of “tours” happen here. The forum for Looking For Someone To Cache With should be just that, not for setting up group tours. This should be taken to a outside blog page, private webpage, or some other private communications.

Posting it here and rubbing it in other members faces is not helping this matter. I’m glad that our Wisconsin Spirit Quest caches are scattered out over 6 counties in NE Wisconsin and others in the UP of Michigan and not centrally located so a tour would be possible.

In my opinion the WGA has let this go too far in our forums and now it is hurting the sport in general. This is a public forum but it still can be censored, look at the GC fourms, bring up the word pathtag or non trackable geocoin and see how fast your post disappears.

We are not in it for the numbers, with Val being partially handicapped we just enjoy the time we are out together and every find that we can get to together. I can count on one hand the times we have cached with others, and have enjoyed each one. but they were not tours, no one pointed the way, just the best parking coords.

Barry of sweetlife.

I have to agree with Barry here. I,too, can count on one hand how many times I’ve cached with others. Let’s see..FunkyFinderz once, Bartrod a few times and Barry twice. That’s it.

I’ve always been a solo runner for the most part.

While I’ll cache with one person or two, I’m not find of large groups caching together. That’s not my thing.

Now I wanna say this – for one cacher to give final coordinates of puzzle caches to another that has not solved said puzzles is wrong. That defeats the purpose of the puzzles themselves. With your statement, CJ, it makes me wonder just how many puzzle caches you have found without solving said puzzles.

I can see why certain owners are upset and want to leave the game.

[cheezehead]

@Todd300 wrote:

@sweetlife wrote:

There comes a time when the WGA should step in and start to censor its forums. Starting from the actions of one cacher who promotes his “tours” (puzzles or any other)in these forums. There now have been 3 or 4 other cachers who have begun to archive/adopt many or all of their caches. I understand freedom of speech, but when it starts to ruin the sport by breaking “unwritten rules” maybe the WGA should not let these promotions of “tours” happen here. The forum for Looking For Someone To Cache With should be just that, not for setting up group tours. This should be taken to a outside blog page, private webpage, or some other private communications.

Posting it here and rubbing it in other members faces is not helping this matter. I’m glad that our Wisconsin Spirit Quest caches are scattered out over 6 counties in NE Wisconsin and others in the UP of Michigan and not centrally located so a tour would be possible.

In my opinion the WGA has let this go too far in our forums and now it is hurting the sport in general. This is a public forum but it still can be censored, look at the GC fourms, bring up the word pathtag or non trackable geocoin and see how fast your post disappears.

We are not in it for the numbers, with Val being partially handicapped we just enjoy the time we are out together and every find that we can get to together. I can count on one hand the times we have cached with others, and have enjoyed each one. but they were not tours, no one pointed the way, just the best parking coords.

Barry of sweetlife.

I have to agree with Barry here. I,too, can count on one hand how many times I’ve cached with others. Let’s see..FunkyFinderz once, Bartrod a few times and Barry twice. That’s it.

I’ve always been a solo runner for the most part.

While I’ll cache with one person or two, I’m not find of large groups caching together. That’s not my thing.

Now I wanna say this – for one cacher to give final coordinates of puzzle caches to another that has not solved said puzzles is wrong. That defeats the purpose of the puzzles themselves. With your statement, CJ, it makes me wonder just how many puzzle caches you have found without solving said puzzles.

I can see why certain owners are upset and want to leave the game.

Todd, reread his post. He DID not go on the tour and only logs his solved.And that what he told the tour leader he was going to do. BUT HE WAS given ALL the info.

[seldom|seen]

@marc_54140 wrote:

If you say something often enough, does it become true?

Seldom, as usual, is spouting off facts and concepts for which he has not proof. He makes wild allegations just to support his ideas.

Take what he says, and everyone for that matter, with a grain of salt.

And Barry, while we are on the topic of not having the facts straight, I have conducted several WSQ Tours to cover your cemetery caches.

Thanks CJ for stepping forward. For anyone who cares, here is THAT file. It contains the solves to almost 45 valley caches, 15 of mine, 15 of -cheetos- (mostly archived now) a handfull or your own and 3 others. This file contains coordinates for many difficult puzzle caches and was provided, without solicitation, by you, for the sole purpose of touring final locations with a public (also posted in these forums) invite to 10 other cachers, any other cachers, known by you or not, who if not given the same file for their GPS’s would have been taken to the same locations to log them.

You publicly stated in these forums that the Puzzle Tour was a joke (the only intent I can fathom being to get anyone irritated with the puzzle run that preceded yours, worked up over the issue, again). You then decided to go touring anyway, part of the joke I guess. Well, Marc, I can tell you that neither I nor -cheeto-, not gotta_run nor Sagasu, nor anyone else aware of that GPX file share were laughing. We have been struggling for weeks now to figure out what to do about your TOURing and most of us have responded by archiving caches and thinking seriously about pulling out of the game or at the very lest the number of caches we place, since you will always be there to offer up a tour to anyone who is either willing to go or is not wise to your methods.

All of the above mentioned cachers have a great love for this sport. All of the above mentioned cachers give back in ways you have no concept of because you take more that you give, and I do recognize that you give. It is a real shame that your sole purpose for posting that tour was apparently to get a person like me, a person who tries to give so much of himself to the sport and make every cache memorable, so upset that I pulled my own caches to prevent them from being toured. You are worse than a muggle or a sabatour, sir, because you of all people should know better. Everyone who has come to know s|s caches for what they are knows that my intent is heartfelt, that I unlike you, want everyone to succeed, to enjoy, to learn and to remember; to come away with something lasting.

What have you accomplished with your actions? You’ve alienated many area cachers, you upset a number of great puzzle and cache creators to the point where they are archiving many good caches, you almost got me to give it up entirely and if it wasn’t for the tremendous support from the general community, I might not be here anymore. And you’ve put many of your closest allies over the course of your involvement in geocahcing in a very sucky postion since they have been asked to respond in some way and haven’t been able yet to chart a course that makes us on this side happy but doesn’t ruffle your feathers. Your association with many of the BOD member is not lost on me and I feel terrible for putting them in any position on the matter, did you catch that? “I FEEL TERRIBLE”

I was really trying to be as civil as I could be and keep my outrage with you to a respectable dull roar, but you are now calling me a liar when I have the evidence of your lies in hand. You want to pull of the gloves and spar in the public forums? Fine, but make sure you have your facts straight before you get started.

[Author]

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