This topic contains 42 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by 
Lostby7 15 years, 7 months ago.
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@cheezehead wrote:
@todd300 wrote:
With your statement, CJ, it makes me wonder just how many puzzle caches you have found without solving said puzzles.
Todd, reread his post. He DID not go on the tour and only logs his solved.And that what he told the tour leader he was going to do. BUT HE WAS given ALL the info.
Correct CheezeHead – I’ve solved all my own puzzles except for:
1) SSSS – where it was a group effort with another cacher in full knowledge of the CO
2) 3-4 that I’ve worked with my daughter on to introduce her to the puzzle aspect of caching.
3) And the most embarrassing one where I had to ask a co-worker (non-cacher) for help. It was one of Marc’s puzzles and I had spent hours (literally) on it and she solved it in 5 minutes.Most recently I was even challenged by a CO when I asked for help on a Green Bay puzzle. It’s a multi-step solve and I was trying to confirm my values for A, B, C, etc. I neglected to provide my “work” and was asked for it. I sent a copy of my work and immediately got help. This is exactly how puzzles should work. If someone is stuck and they contact the CO (providing details of what you’ve tried, what your assumptions are, etc.) the CO should help nudge you in the right or wrong direction.
BTW – Todd300 no offense taken from my side – I’m assuming you just misread it.
I did misread it, CJ.
“Wild Allegations?”
“Outrage at a dull roar?”
“Liar?”
Step back and take a breath people…..
I can fully understand that puzzle/mystery/multi cache creators want their caches found in a particular way, I get that.
I can also fully understand that some people just want to go out and find trinkets in the woods. (count me as one of them)
I cannot understand all of this misdirected passion.
If somebody occasionally walks across my front lawn (I live on a corner lot), I really don’t like it, and I really wish they would stop. However, if it doesn’t cause any damage to the lawn, has any harm really been done? Sure, I might go out and politely ask them to stop. If they don’t stop, am I going to sell my house and move? I don’t think so.
I’m assuming that the people who do not solve the puzzles yet find them anyway are not damaging the cache itself, are they? Is there such a large quantity of them that a geo-trail forms? Do they rob the caches of all the good trinkets? If so, then maybe you have a more legitimate beef.
Politely and respectfully ask the person to stop what they are doing. If they continue, take a deep breath and move on anyway.
@buy_the_tie wrote:
If somebody occasionally walks across my front lawn (I live on a corner lot), I really don’t like it, and I really wish they would stop. However, if it doesn’t cause any damage to the lawn, has any harm really been done? Sure, I might go out and politely ask them to stop. If they don’t stop, am I going to sell my house and move? I don’t think so.
And how would you feel if those same somebodies occasionally walked across your lawn after you politely asked them to not do it? And if they STILL continued to do it even after you approached them again? And, after that, they STILL continued to walk across your lawn, even though they KNEW it bothered you… How would that make you feel? Keep in mind, they’re not causing any damage to the lawn, so is there any harm really being done?
Not trying to pick on you Buy_The_Tie, you just happened to provide an excellent opportunity to make a point, so please don’t take it personally.
I have been following this issue for a while and now I will enter with an opinion.
I once heard a story from a storyteller that makes sense here:
Three men were crossing the desert on camel. They were carrying all the supplies they could for the trip. A ways into the journey one of the men claims to hear a voice in the wind calling them over a dune. He wants to go. Another is reluctant, but is willing to check it out. The third thinks they are both crazy and refuses to go. When the two men get there, they see a dry river bed filled with rocks. The voice is heard again saying take all the rocks you can on your journey and you will be rewarded. The first man energetic took as much as he could. He dumped his gear and took a load almost too heavy for his camel. The second thought he was crazy, but he picked up a small bag and filled it just in case. The third obviously had none, because he refused to come over the dune. When they reached their destination, they unpacked their bags. The two men realized that the rocks turned to gold.
Moral: your personal reward for anything can be measured by the effort put into it.
People that get these printouts cheat only themselves in the long run. I feel bad that the cache owners feel that they are being cheated of their reward. I hope their efforts will be rewarded on occasion by a good log, they just will have to put effort into waiting a bit more patiently.
I noticed yesterday a cacher took a group of newbies to the final of a series without having them find all the required caches to get the coordinates. He/She had found the final before. The newbies were a cub scout troop. Is that wrong???
@Braid Beard’s Gang wrote:
I noticed yesterday a cacher took a group of newbies to the final of a series without having them find all the required caches to get the coordinates. He/She had found the final before. The newbies were a cub scout troop. Is that wrong???
Absolultely not, because the intent was very likely to introduce them to geocaching or to maintain their interest without having them toil through the process or be bored with it since it was a group activity that some may not elect to do on their own. It’s the same arguement as caching in a family with multiple identies and logging a puzzle find even though the kids didn’t assist in the solve. They know each other, they know the intent, they know mom and dad are being generous and probably explain what the puzzle was about, especially if it had any historical or location merit.
I’ll say it again. I have no real issue with groups of cachers who enjoy each others company or families that go on outings. They know what they are missing out on if they choose to log puzzles that not everyone has solved and make personal judgements about whether it’s worth the effort for each member to solve or not, that’s their call. I get it and this is not the TOUR issue at hand, never has been.
However, if that same cacher had then proceed to take the troop to another 20 puzzle finals without having the troop do the work to find the cords or even understand the nature of the puzzles, just so they could look in the caches for goodies, then yes, I would have a problem with that, and yet that scenario still would not rise to the level of the issues being discussed here.
The analogy would have to be likened to a den leader inviting all the other den leaders in the Pack to bring their scouts along as well, and indeed extend that invite to all the other Troops in the area… actually the entire state, to all go sign a slew of caches without having the scouts do any of the work so they could earn a merit badge and say they earned it.
I would not want my son to be part of that Den, Pack, Troop or Organization if that were the case.@Braid Beard’s Gang wrote:
The two men realized that the rocks turned to gold.
What’s the GC number of that cache?
It seems to me that most everybody that responds to a controversy in these forums, has, at some point, mentioned that this is a game that has no winner, and that it should be played however one wants to. For example, logging temps, the above mentioned “tours”, and logging requirements come to mind. It also seems that most could care less, one way or the other, how the game is played, but there usually seems to be one issue that an individual takes a bit more personally. I have logged temps in the past, but no longer do, even though I used a gps to find them. I guess by some definitions mentioned earlier, I have also participated in a tour or two. I guess what I’m boiling this down to is that if a cache owner doesn’t want participation of finders in certain ways, why not mention that in the cache description and then delete the logs if they feel that their wishes have been violated? I know that GS ruled against cache requirements, but an owner can still delete logs if they want to, can’t they?
This is not being pointed at any individual(s). Im just speaking in general.
@furfool wrote:
I guess what I’m boiling this down to is that if a cache owner doesn’t want participation of finders in certain ways, why not mention that in the cache description and then delete the logs if they feel that their wishes have been violated? I know that GS ruled against cache requirements, but an owner can still delete logs if they want to, can’t they?
Two thing in quick response. One, I think by nature it’s understood the a puzzle is there to be solved. If not, why is it a puzzle? Two, have you even deleted a log for any reason, no matter how legitimate? It is not an easy thing to do and is most often responded to by the logger in a negative way, no matter how legitimate the issue. What we can and wheht I often do (not always)is send a PM to the logger if there’s anything questionable about the log, to see if there’s some remedy. But I can tell you if I deleted all the logs that I thought weren’t earned by my definition of earning the find… whew, there would be hell to pay. That level of scrutiny is not worth anybody’s time either the CO’s or the finders and why it’s rare that I delete logs. But, yes, it is still the CO’s prerogative to police their caches any way they see fit.
I know that GS ruled against cache requirements, but an owner can still delete logs if they want to, can’t they?
Sure they CAN, but Groundspeak has made it clear that if a cacher signs the physical log, they get to claim the find. If the owner deletes the log, the cacher can appeal to Groundspeak. I’m not sure what takes place after that, like how much proof GS would require from either party before ruling, but if the cacher did sign the log and GS believes they did, GS can then reinstate the found log and lock it so it cannot be deleted by the owner.
@sandlanders wrote:
@Braid Beard’s Gang wrote:
The two men realized that the rocks turned to gold.
What’s the GC number of that cache?
GC1JHOW
@mizfit wrote:
And how would you feel if those same somebodies occasionally walked across your lawn after you politely asked them to not do it? And if they STILL continued to do it even after you approached them again? And, after that, they STILL continued to walk across your lawn, even though they KNEW it bothered you… How would that make you feel? Keep in mind, they’re not causing any damage to the lawn, so is there any harm really being done?
I wouldn’t like it…. I wouldn’t like it at all.
Each time I saw it, I would take a deep breath, grit my teeth, and go back to my business.
The person walking across my lawn is someday bound to get themselves a car. 8)
@buy_the_tie wrote:
The person walking across my lawn is someday bound to get themselves a car. 8)
…and drive across your yard. 😈
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