When did Letterbox Hybrids come back into play?

[3 Hawks]

I thought these were “Grandfathered” cache types but it would appear they are once again free to place. Is this new or has this always been the case?

[Lostby7]

@3 Hawks wrote:

I thought these were “Grandfathered” cache types but it would appear they are once again free to place. Is this new or has this always been the case?

To be honest I’m not sure but I made a trip to the stamp store today…….. 😉

I’m just waiting for a bit of placement information first, as I’m not sure how the 528 rules apply to this cache type…..

[3 Hawks]

I see Digital Dan already has a brand new Letterbox Hybrid in the game. He must be on some super secret mailing list because I never heard anything about this new development.

Do I need to edit my “auto cache notification” so I get informed of these new placements? Digital Dan’s is less than 20 miles from my home but I did not receive any notification of his placement even though it is within my 25 mile window.

[Lostby7]

OK so can someone answer this:

Let’s say that there is a multi cache in town that has stages throughout the town such that no other cache could be placed based on the 528 rule. Now a letterbox hybrid is placed outside of town. The directions for finding the Letterbox hybrid begin at a landmark on the north side of town and end on the south side of town where the cache is hidden. As part of its written directions landmarks inside of this town are referenced. Does this cache get approved?

SO what I’m wondering is how does the 528 rule apply to the letterbox hybrid? Does the rule apply only to the beginning and ending point? Does it apply to the each landmark referenced along the path of the hunt? …or does it apply to the entire route?

…anyone?

[Cheesehead Dave]

I don’t think Letterbox hybrids ever went out of play.

They really aren’t considered multis, as there’s only the one container. Since any intermediate steps would only be landmarks and not containers, the 528′ guideline would not apply to those; the guideline would only apply to the final container as usual.

[Lostby7]

@Cheesehead Dave wrote:

I don’t think Letterbox hybrids ever went out of play.

They really aren’t considered multis, as there’s only the one container. Since any intermediate steps would only be landmarks and not containers, the 528′ guideline would not apply to those; the guideline would only apply to the final container as usual.

Not to open a can of worms, but then would a multi which is also based on landmarks (no tags and only one cache) follow this same 528 rule? That is, can I place a cache 20 feet away from a stage of a multi if the multis stage is just a landmark?

[3 Hawks]

@Cheesehead Dave wrote:

I don’t think Letterbox hybrids ever went out of play.

When I said “out of play,” I only meant that they have not been a placement option since I started caching in June of 2006. I thought they were a “Grandfathered” type, like virtual caches.

I have not seen a single Letterbox Hybrid in Milwaukee, Kenosha, or Racine county since I started. Are you telling me that this has always been a placement option but nobody in these three counties has placed this type in a year and a half?

[Buy_The_Tie]

@Lostby7 wrote:

… would a multi which is also based on landmarks (no tags and only one cache) follow this same 528 rule? That is, can I place a cache 20 feet away from a stage of a multi if the multis stage is just a landmark?

There are two types of waypoints associated with multi-caches, mystery caches and letterbox hybrids.

1. Waypoint type “Question To Answer”. This type of waypoint would be a sign or a place where maybe you need to stand and count some items to come up with information that will lead you on to the next waypoint. These are considered “virtual” waypoints and the 528′ rule does not apply. So, your typical landmark would fall into this category.

2. Waypoint type “Stages of Multi-cache”. This type of a waypoint would be a physical thing, say, maybe a container with co-ords inside, or a tag with some info on it. Because there is actually something at the location hidden by the owner for the purposes of the geocache, this type of waypoint does need to be 528′ away from any other physical waypoint or cache.

I hope this helps.

[Team Deejay]

Adding on to Tie’s comment, for multicaches which start with a “landmark” as the first stage:

If you call the cache a multi, this stage will be subject to all the distance requirements, and will prevent other caches from being placed close to the first stage.

If, on the other hand, you call the cache a mystery/unknown cache, the first stage is not subject to proximity rules and it will not prevent other caches from being placed close by.

This is a decision that can be made by the cache owner. Similarly, if you have “landmark” stages for your multi, other than the first, you are allowed to call these “stages of a multicache” and they will take up space, just like a regular physical stage. As I’m sure you can see, designating “virtual start” multis as mystery caches will take up less space, just like properly designating virtual waypoint will take up less space, but this is the owner’s decision. If you want to take up a lot of space, you are allowed to do this. Note that when the reviewers have to add waypoints to caches which were not updated properly, we only add the physical stages.

If anyone want to change their existing cache’s type from multi to mystery (or vise versa), just email me.

[Timberline Echoes]

We are planning on putting out a hybrid in Oct in honor of our grandson’s birthday. It will be listed as a cache at Geocaching with coords and as a letterbox at letterboxing.org with instructions. Since we do both we figure it would be good all the way around for people who do one or the other or both.
TE

[Lostby7]

@Timberline Echoes wrote:

…It will be listed as a cache at Geocaching with coords and as a letterbox at letterboxing.org with instructions….

I’m curious if anyone knows if this is the typical way these are listed (with coordinates on GC and word clues on Letterbox.org)?

The latest one listed near me (and the only one within 50 miles) is listed with word clues only on GC.

[Team Deejay]

@Lostby7 wrote:

@Timberline Echoes wrote:

…It will be listed as a cache at Geocaching with coords and as a letterbox at letterboxing.org with instructions….

I’m curious if anyone knows if this is the typical way these are listed (with coordinates on GC and word clues on Letterbox.org)?

The latest one listed near me (and the only one within 50 miles) is listed with word clues only on GC.

After lots of debate on the reviewer boards, here is the final (for now, until they change it) rules on Letterbox Hybrid.

1. A letterbox hybrid must have a stamp and a stampbook.
2. You can make the cache like a regular geocache with the coordinates listed at the box.
3. You can make it like a mystery cache, where you follow the word clues to the cache. If you do this, you need to make at least part of the cache involve use of a GPS to find the starting point (no parking lots, trail junctions, crossroads or other other locations that you could obviously find without a GPS). You also need to use the additional waypoints feature to list the final location, which can either be hidden or unhidden by owner preference (will usually be hidden, I would think).
4. You can do BOTH 2 and 3 and let the finder decide which method to use.
5. You can crosslist on letterboxing.org or any other letterbox listing agency, but this is not required.
6. Multistage letterboxes are ok, and only the final need have a stamp and a stampbook.

Basically, a letterbox hybrid is either a traditional or field puzzle mystery cache with a stamp and a stampbook. Of course, you still have to follow all the other guidelines as well.

[gotta run]

I know this is an older thread, but we did recently put a series of letterbox hybrids out.

I do have one “complaint,” for what it’s worth, on the following official requirement:

You can make it like a mystery cache, where you follow the word clues to the cache. If you do this, you need to make at least part of the cache involve use of a GPS to find the starting point (no parking lots, trail junctions, crossroads or other other locations that you could obviously find without a GPS). You also need to use the additional waypoints feature to list the final location, which can either be hidden or unhidden by owner preference (will usually be hidden, I would think).

I have seen caches published recently (not letterboxes) where the GPS was not integral to finding the cache, only the parking area (think night caching). So, it seems to be inconsisent to allow a clues-only approach (“follow the reflectors”) for one type, but not for letterboxing.

I’m NOT saying change the rules for night caching; these are a blast. I’m just saying why can’t Geocaching be consistent?

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Team Deejay]

The reality is that all geocaches have to have some sort of integral GPS usage. This required by the guidelines. Most night caches out there have a “semi-random” spot to go to with your GPS as a starting point. I’m sure there are a few out there which don’t have enough GPS usage, but this is not intentional. To be honest, there are probably more puzzle caches out there with inadequate GPS usage than night caches. GPS usage is the second most ambiguous guidelines, and sometimes the reviewer either doesn’t look close enough or doesn’t recognize the problem. If there is a geocache out there which you feel is violating the guideline, please let one of the reviewers know, so that we can investigate. Otherwise, the only times we revisit a cache are when you move it or when we find it ourselves.

[gotta run]

@Team Deejay wrote:

If there is a geocache out there which you feel is violating the guideline, please let one of the reviewers know, so that we can investigate.

No! I wasn’t trying to fink on anyone here–I have no problem with any cache out there. My only point being that when we looked to place letterbox hybrids, the geocaching.com guidelines for letterboxes specifically stated (and still does) that letterboxes “must involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues.”

I had searched around on this on the main geocaching.com boards and learned that some placers had had their requests turned down because the GPS part was only for parking coordinates. (I suppose we could have asked a WI admin, but we decided just to make them coordinate hides rather than clue hides.)

Yet, at several night caches we’ve done, we left the GPSr in the car after getting to the parking spot. And you mentioned puzzle caches–at one puzzle cache, we could have left the GPSr at home.

So I guess the lesson is that we could place another letterbox (or a different type of cache, for that matter), listing only parking coordinates and using only clues–visual, written, or otherwise–to find the cache and it would be completely OK, at least for the WI reviewers.

It’s just confusing if one is trying to follow Da Rules.

On the Left Side of the Road...

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