Why I voted "NO" to logging temps

[2_UP_Geologists]

We don’t typically post to the WGA forums but as a former resident (Lori) and attendees at WGA events, I’d like to throw in some of our thoughts.

Having temp caches really enhances the campout and picnic. We love the challenge of trying to get to a lot of the temp caches although we don’t get all. We would still attend if we couldn’t log the temps because we have a great time with all the imaginative hides and enjoy traipsing up hill and down dale. We tend to try to make sure we aren’t just stamping somebody else’s find although that’s unavoidable sometimes.

We have logged these temps and feel they have more credibility than all the “Wal-Mart micros” out there.

I do have to chide you, Zuma, on legitimizing people who’ve designated themselves as the caching police. LifeOnEdge! has managed to tick off just about every cache hider in the UP with the snide and overly critical remarks he makes in his logs. He never contacts the cache hider to voice his concerns about the placement of a cache (or anything else he can think of) but rather flames people in his logs or notes. I should have known he wouldn’t limit himself to commenting on caches he might actually visit or events he attends.

Cache police are anathema to geocaching. Everyone plays their own way. I’d prefer to see it stay that way, not having gc.com or other cachers making everyones decisions for them. Even if I don’t agree with the way some people log their finds, it’s up to them. I’m not about to police someone elses numbers. We don’t log anything we haven’t actually found and that seems legitimate enough to us.

I’ve always liked WGA’s stance as a maverick among the sheep who blandly follow every gc.com dictate but ultimately, it’s up to your membership and the board to decide on WGA sponsored events.

Lori

[cheezehead]

@cheezehead wrote:

Ya know, it’s kind of a mute point until GC.com makes it so you can only log one find/attended a cache/event. How is the WGA going to prevent multiple “attended logs”? …….. Until GC.com changes it’s system, there is now way to stop the practice( At least I don’t think there is…….)

A little help here please. Is this or is this not correct? Other than no temps. being placed at a WGA event?

[Lostby7]

@2_UP_Geologists wrote:

I’ve always liked WGA’s stance as a maverick among the sheep who blandly follow every gc.com dictate…

Oh that does make it sound “funner” to keep logging the way we have in the past.

Still…I wonder what rank I’d have in the state if everyone played with the same rules…sure numbers “Don’t count” but I’m a numbers guy; I count stuff for a living. I record every detail of each and every mile I ride on my bike. Anal? Yes. I think that many of us are flat out obsessive compulsive and that is in part what makes this such a difficult issue to get past. Take the cadence counter off my bike and I’d still ride but I’d enjoy it a whole lot less…take away the speedometer and I might not ride at all. I see logging temps in much the same way…people who log them are used to logging them and enjoy that part of the game. Taking that away is really hard to “cope” with. It seems simple but it’s a behavioral issue and those are always difficult to modify.

[Jeremy]

@cheezehead wrote:

@cheezehead wrote:

Ya know, it’s kind of a mute point until GC.com makes it so you can only log one find/attended a cache/event. How is the WGA going to prevent multiple “attended logs”? …….. Until GC.com changes it’s system, there is now way to stop the practice( At least I don’t think there is…….)

A little help here please. Is this or is this not correct? Other than no temps. being placed at a WGA event?

We would/could prevent this by deleting the “attended” logs of those who log the event multiple times… just as any cache owner can delete any logs they don’t feel are legitimate or follow the rules. I would believe that if the WGA requested no logging of temps that most people would comply on their own though…

@ecorangers wrote:

Second thing: I’m confused (not everyone has to laugh at once here). While registering for the WGA campout, I read in two different places that temp. caches would be available for the campout AND they are looking for volunteers to hide temp caches at the picnic? So when will we know if they are going to be temp caches at either the campout or picnic?

There will be temporary caches at the Geo-Campout. Whether they will be loggable is not known at this point…

I sincerely hope that temporary caches remain a part of WGA events regardless of what we decide regarding the logging of them. I believe that having temp caches is one thing that sets the WGA events apart from normal meet and greet events.

Temporary caches can be difficult. They can be special or unique things that simply would not work as a permanent cache. They are designed to get people to see a lot of different hides in a short period of time. They highlight unique natural and historical features in a single spot (in the WGA’s case, usually a state park), and by the end of the day you should be intimately familiar with the place.

Temporary caches also create a “shared experience” among geocachers attending an event. You should be bumping into other people out on the trails, hopefully meeting new people and forming ad hoc groups while searching, and you have something in common to talk about at the end of the day (and for years to come).

@manparuby wrote:

The people talking about it said it didn’t matter to them whether people logged them or not, but they would NOT log the temps, therefore, only did a few and went to do permanent caches instead, although stayed to enjoy the company.

If you are going out on your own or with people you already know to find permanent caches in the area an event is being held, that’s OK, but is that really the point? You are much less likely to run into other geocachers. You are not likely to do the same permanent caches as others. You could go after these permanent caches any day you wanted to, right? It seems like the event is just acting as an excuse to get you to visit a certain area for a day.

[gotta run]

To get back to, or to clarify, the original point of this post, are we talking about somehow prohibiting people from multi-logging events for each temp cache found? That would seem to require a gc.com change which is outside the control of WGA.

Or, are we talking about simply setting a precedent where WGA events do not condone multi-logging?

This whole issue is so incredibly pointless…Until someone finds a way to make a living off how many finds they log, who gives a crap?

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Jeremy]

@gotta run wrote:

To get back to, or to clarify, the original point of this post, are we talking about somehow prohibiting people from multi-logging events for each temp cache found? That would seem to require a gc.com change which is outside the control of WGA.

What is prohibiting people from logging a regular cache multiple times? Nothing, other than the owner saying that they can’t (for most caches) and backing that up by deleting extra logs if they do occur. The same concept applies to events.

The cache owner or event organizer decides what goes… the WGA could decide to do this for its events, but it could not force this rule on other events held in the state. Therefore we are only talking about what the WGA should do at its events.

[gotta run]

@Jeremy wrote:

[What is prohibiting people from logging a regular cache multiple times? Nothing, other than the owner saying that they can’t (for most caches) and backing that up by deleting extra logs if they do occur. The same concept applies to events.

The cache owner or event organizer decides what goes… the WGA could decide to do this for its events, but it could not force this rule on other events held in the state. Therefore we are only talking about what the WGA should do at its events.

So to summarize then:

-gc.com is going to continue to allow mutliple logging of events; i.e., they’re not going to put in a system edit that says “you already logged this event.”

-gc.com has apparently stated (according to Ecorangers) that they don’t care either way.

-People can still put out temp cache events and allow multiple logging.

-Any WGA prohibition against multiple logging of temps wouldn’t really carry any weight because you could still do it on gc.com, unless the event owner is going to police it and delete logs.

-This is all being done because we’re worried about what other people who we don’t know are saying about the way we play a game.

Uhhhhh…yeah, makes perfect sense to me! 🙄

On the Left Side of the Road...

[SammyClaws]

@Jeremy wrote:

The cache owner or event organizer decides what goes… the WGA could decide to do this for its events, but it could not force this rule on other events held in the state. Therefore we are only talking about what the WGA should do at its events.

I am not so sure you can end it just there. There has been talk of creating/standardizing materials for education and awareness. Personally, I think that education benefits all cachers in wisconsin. It helps the WGA big time in spreading awareness of the organization and it helps individual cachers with better quality hides and a clearer explanation of the rules (maybe there would be less MIA travel bugs if people were aware they are not trade items their kids can keep – another story for another day) So what will be the message? This trainer says you can log temps, but another trainer doesn’t agree. And then the WGA doesn’t allow it at its events. I am thinking it will appear to be a very disorganized organization.

I have made my choice on how I log, but I don’t think we have to tell others how they should. It was explained to me that Groundspeak left the multiple attended logs out there for a reason. They are a for profit organization and it could cost them some players (i.e. revenue) if they closed it. Its a legal loophole. So if we are bending to pressures from other states, I think that is just Criminal (pun intended).

[gotta run]

This whole issue is incredibly ridiculous.

Why the heck do we even get a “found” log for an event cache anyway? When we attend a meet and greet event, the only thing we find is our way to the bar, but it still ticks the ol’ counter up a notch.

Pointless, pointless, pointless. Did I mention pointless?

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Jeremy]

@gotta run wrote:

This whole issue is incredibly ridiculous.

Pointless, pointless, pointless. Did I mention pointless?

Finally something I think (almost) everyone can agree on. 🙂

I wish this whole topic was never brought up (again!). I guess I probably shouldn’t have voted yes to even allow a referendum on this to be held. Let people play the game the way they want to play.

[cheezehead]

This is pointless, I agree. And until the GC.com loophole is closed and THEY say you can’t do it, let the bellyache-rs belly ache and just ignore it all. Cuz if the WGA starts deleting stuff, it then become the Geo-cops.

[Ry and Ny]

I guess I didn’t see it as being about WGA deleting stuff and/or being “geo-cops.” When I looked at it, I thought that, with just about everything I do, I function within different circles of society, and sometimes it’s not about the law or the police, it’s about courtesy and getting along with the neighbors.

For example, there’s nothing in the Oshkosh city ordinances that says I can’t wear a Speedo to the new waterpark. I remember having to wear one in a high school gym class and, frankly, they’re really comfy. There’s no “rule” that says I can’t. You wouldn’t even be within your rights to tell me to leave and change into something decent.

But, all things considered, I don’t want anyone else rushing off to grab a gallon of bleach to pour into their eyes to burn the image out of their mind, either. The fact that there are no “rules” preventing it doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t have some self-actualized motivation in a civilized community to adhere to a certain modicum of the standards of the community as a whole rather than cover my ears and yell “lalalala!” at their disapproval as if the problem lies with everyone else’s opinion and not my own.

[-cheeto-]

Ry and Ny – what an excellent response to this thread!

[gotta run]

@Ry and Ny wrote:

The fact that there are no “rules” preventing it doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t have some self-actualized motivation in a civilized community to adhere to a certain modicum of the standards of the community as a whole rather than cover my ears and yell “lalalala!” at their disapproval as if the problem lies with everyone else’s opinion and not my own.

Here’s the critical difference, and it’s not just because I find jammers more comfortable than a Speedo…

When you wear Speedos to the local pool, everyone else has no choice but to look at you or avert their eyes in horror. There may be no rules prohibiting cutting in front of the line at a buffet, but it affects other people when you do. Other examples I could provide, but you get the point.

You are affecting NO ONE when you post multiple “finds” of an event. Additionally, and most important, the ONLY way people who complain about it even know is because THEY are taking the time to search profiles and logs and nitpick this thing to death. So they are making it their problem, all by themselves.

If gc doesn’t want multiple logs, it’s an easy matter to put an edit in the system to prevent it. If they don’t, you’re not hurting anyone in any way whatsoever by doing it.

It’s just a game…it’s just a game…it’s just a game…ad infinitum, ad nauseum…

On the Left Side of the Road...

[Ry and Ny]

Actually, not true. I just found two logs that irked me the other day when I was just looking for neat caches. One said “saw it, but couldn’t get it” with a smiley on it and the other had 2 smilies right in a row on the same cache.

So, it’s really not necessarily all that different.

Sure, it’s just a game. I agree 100%. We play a lot of Rodeo Golf out in our backyard. Ry might wear a bikini from time to time (yes, when we stand next to each other, it’s a remarkable rendition of the number “10”), but I don’t wear a Speedo doing that either. 😉

That does get back to my original point, though. It’s just a game, so if this is causing ill-will even on a small level, why is it such an issue to throw up our arms and say “hokay, have it your way then”?

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