Why not place a cache in a SNA? (State Natural Area)

[DCexplorer]

[WISearchers]

of course I do not have all of the answers, but I believe that there has been specific permission granted for one/some by those in charge of the specific areas (land managers)…I am sure though that Grousetales would be much more articulate in describing the ins and outs of approving the caches (which I am sure is laborious task).
Ms. WISearcher

[DCexplorer]

While some SNAs are owned by private land trust groups & preservation groups, most, I would say, are owned by the DNR. As anyone knows, dealing with the DNR can be a frustrating and time-consuming process. If everybody had to get a signed affidavit from Madison just to place a cache on public land, the rate of cache placement would plummit. Same for local county and town boards. A county or town board troll’s unenlightened first reaction would be to say no, because it is always easier and safer to maintain the status quo.

I will modify my initial argument that if the SNA is owned by a private conservation group, then permission should be obtained beforehand. But if a government owned area has public access, then we should be able to utilize it for our rather discreet sport.

I am not advocating Geocache anarchy, but it is always going to be easier to archive a cache if unknown or unintended consequences make themselves apparent with badly placed caches than going through buracratic hell to place it at all.

[kbraband]

Maybe I can shed some light on this. When we first met with DNR Parks officials in the summer of 2002 to discuss developing a geocaching policy for state-managed land, Sue Black, then director of State Parks, expressed 6 concerns about geocaching. She mentioned:
-Inappropriate items in caches
-Off trail hiking
-State Natural Areas
-Historical areas
-Digging
-Wildlife disturbance

Therefore we (the WGA committee of about 15 to 20 members that worked on the proposed policy draft) proposed a policy that would address these concerns. At that time there were a number of geocaches already placed in SNAs. One of the main tenets of our proposed policy was to establish that geocachers would ask for and receive permission before placing caches on state-managed land. Since the policy was not yet approved, we did not feel we should immediately begin requiring caches to ask for permission, because most park managers were still unfamiliar with geocaching. However, to remain in good standing with the DNR, we felt it best to immediately recommend that no new geocaches be allowed in SNAs. By the way, one of the reasons the DNR expressed this concern is because in many SNAs, off-trail hiking is not permitted and it was felt that geocaching is quite often an off-trail activity. At that time, the WGA did not have an official role in approving new caches. Therefore, we had no authority to require caches be removed from SNAs. Not long after that, Jeremy Irish decided to start granting admin authority to local geocaching associations because of all the local and state rules that were being enacted by various parks officials around the country and the world. At the present time, GrouseTales is the main admin for Wisconsin for approving caches. JeremyV and I also pitch in from time to time. This responsibility will likely rotate from time to time. By taking on this responsibility, we show the state DNR that not only do we have the backing of Wisconsin geocachers and geocaching.com, but we also have the means to enforce the policy we are jointly developing with the DNR. Now, back to the SNA “grandfathering” issue. Many of us who had existing caches in SNAs decided on an individual basis to remove some of them. For example, my New Prospect cache was in an SNA in the Northern Kettle Moraine unit. I decided that it had been there long enough and there was potential for the plant life to be damaged, so I removed it. However, at my other SNA cache — Devils Lake Revisited — there is very little potential for any plant life damage because it is hidden in a boulder field. So I decided to let that one remain. Likewise, for the time being, other geocachers have been given the option of deciding whether or not to remove their caches in SNAs. That may change if the DNR requests us to remove all SNA caches, or if they require ALL geocaches to receive an annual permit. We don’t yet know what their requirement will be because we’re still waiting to see a copy of the policy.

I hope this answers some of your questions so you know that enforcement of the SNA rule has not been arbitrary. For now, “grandfathered” caches in SNAs have been allowed to remain. Time will tell if that continues to be the case. If you have opinions or comments, please share them here. We welcome your input.

For more background on why we are cooperating with the DNR, check out the forum topic “Wisconsin DNR” here in the WGA forums: http://wi-geocaching.com/forums/Forum9/HTML/000001.html

[This message has been edited by kbraband (edited 10-07-2003).]

[DCexplorer]

Thanks for taking the time for the detailed response. However, if these are the reasons for the DNR discouraging SNA bans, I stand by my assertion that common sense would be a better determination of placement than an arbitrary ban.

-Inappropriate items in caches
-Off trail hiking
-State Natural Areas
-Historical areas
-Digging
-Wildlife disturbance

1. obviously, inappropriate items shouldn’t be in any cache, regardless of location.
2. many SNA’s don’t have established walking/hiking trails, yet they are still utilized by the public. In addition, I have seen firsthand the destruction that creating a hiking trail system has on the environment as low-use parks are “modernized” with clear-cutting large swaths of environmentally sensitive areas and covered with gravel. Nobody has suggested that bird-watching should be banned because someone may walk through a forest without walking paths following some bird call.
3. A Lot of State Natural Areas, at least a lot of them in Door County, are quite well visited. Adding a cache would not increase the visitor population or impact the environment in any meaningful fashion. Peninsula State Park and Whitefish Dunes State Park will still have plenty of visitors, with or without a cache.
4. Historical areas should be visited. If an old kiln is located in a ten acre park, why should the whole park be off limits, instead of just around the kiln? Keep the cache away from a sensative area, but put a note in it, that says, ‘while you’re here, why not visit the kiln?’
5. Digging is also not appropriate for any cache.
6. If wildlife runs in front of my car as I’m driving home at 60 MPH, it may be seriously disturbed. If it runs in front of me as I’m walking through the woods, I think we’ll both be just fine. Unless it’s a skunk.

Obviously, oversight is difficult when there’s well over a thousand caches in Wisconsin, and more all the time. I would hate to see us Geocachers get a bad rap, but I also would hate to see it become so homegenized (can’t do this! can’t do that!) that it isn’t fun and/or challenging anymore.

[GrouseTales]

Often times it’s extremely difficult to determine if a cache is in a SNA. When your pulling up Mapquest maps, you don’t see SNA’s on them. This requires the Admins to review every single SNA in the county to see if the cache is located within the boundaries. This is an extremely time consuming task. On some occasions, It’s taken me several days to make custom maps to see if a cache is within boundaries of a certain SNA. It is a royal pain in the butt, but I feel it’s important. It’s quite possible that a cache or two has fallen through the cracks and got approved, but we do our best to weed them out.

To make matters worse, some SNA’s don’t have a map of their boundaries. This makes it impossible to tell if a cache is located there or not. Some SNA’s are open to hunting, hiking, etc, while others forbid any type of entry.

Several caches out there are grandfathered. They were placed before we were aware of the SNA rule, and have been allowed to stay.

Many SNA’s are private property that are listed as SNA’s by the DNR. Some in Door county are privately managed land. In one of these instances, the cache owner was part of a board that oversees management of the property. The property manager and cache owner saw Geocaching as means of getting more visitors to their property. In this instance, and several others, the cache was allowed to be placed because they had the permission of the property manager to place the cache in the SNA.

There are a lot of complex issues with the SNA. Perhaps the DNR’s Geocaching policy will better outline geocaching usage on SNA’s. We’re still waiting for that policy.

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“There are two kinds of hunting: ordinary hunting and grouse hunting.”
-Aldo Leopold, A sand county Almanac

Brian
WGA Vice President
[email protected]

[DCexplorer]

So it seems like our hands are somewhat tied due to the lack of action/information from the DNR. Here’s what I’m hearing:
1. boundaries of SNAs hard to determine. Descriptions and lack of maps from DNR not much help. “Rock Island Woods?” Rock Island is almost entirely forested. Does that mean the whole island?
2. SNAs that allow hunting/public access should allow Geocaching. Hunting is also an off-trail activity. The DNR in its wisdom tried doing a “controlled burn” on a windy day at Mud Lake (a SNA with hunting access) a few years back. It got out of control, and burned hundreds of acres down. Yet a cache box there would damage the environment?
3. Outlawing ALL Geocaching on ALL SNAs because a few inappropriate placements may happen would be like banning the possession of a candy bars or picnic lunches in a SNA because some people might throw their litter on the ground. As kbraband stated, he pulled one of his caches because it was in a sensative area, but left another where impact would be minimal. That’s common sense. I’ll be moving one of mine soon, because some nearby ferns are getting walked on. That’s what smart hiders should be doing, monitoring their caches, and making sure impact is minimal.

[Jeremy]

quote:

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Originally posted by DCexplorer:
3. Outlawing ALL Geocaching on ALL SNAs because a few inappropriate placements may happen would be like banning the possession of a candy bars or picnic lunches in a SNA because some people might throw their litter on the ground.

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Funny you should make this comparison because food and beverages are banned in several SNAs. Here is a list from the DNR rules… I have also seen signs to this effect at other SNAs.

PARFREY’S GLEN, NATURAL BRIDGE, ROCHE–A–CRI MOUND,AND PEWIT’S NEST STATE NATURAL AREAS. (a) No person may possess or consume any food or beverage in the Parfrey’s Glen state
natural area, Natural Bridge state natural area, Roche–A–Cri Mound state natural area and Pewit’s Nest state natural area.

[DCexplorer]

I seem to be playing point-counterpoint with lots of administrators. Whitefish Dunes State Park is a SNA with the largest and most significant Great Lakes dunescape in Wisconsin. Yet people are welcome to swim there, lay about on blankets, bring coolers, and I’ve even seen kids digging in the sand with little plastic shovels.

At least Jvechinski agrees with me that different SNAs have different rules. Will he also agree with me that since the DNR has different rules for different SNAs, then the WGA should also have different rules for different SNAs?

[kbraband]

Not everyone agrees with every rule that governs geocaching, but at some point we have to all work together for the good of the sport. At this stage of our development and working with land managers such as the DNR, some compromise is going to be necessary. The alternative — which we have already seen in neighboring states — is an outright ban on geocaching. The WGA has sought input from members on the proposed policy since August of 2002, and we received a lot of good input from members via the forums and via public WGA meetings held at geocaching events. We continue to value everyone’s input as we await the next stage of the process, which is to see what the DNR policy will be.

[Ray]

Perhaps we can agree that we need a base set of rules for placement that is comprehensive for all SNA’s, indeed for all potential sites. Those rules may be a bit too restrictive in some cases. Provision for exceptions to policy should be made to allow for those deviations that are reasonable where the rules are too restrictive.

For example, in some SNAs it might be reasonable to allow a micro cache placement within 10-20 feet of an established trail.

[DCexplorer]

In the DNR’s defense, they are getting their budget slashed while simultaneously being asked to perform more tasks with less personnel. I’m sure the WGA is pretty low on their worry list right now.

[arffer]

I was the geocaching admin that approved Rock Island Woods – Keeper’s Cache by The Troops. Please recheck your information. This cache is not even close to being in an SNA. The nearest SNA is 0.4 miles to the caches south.

Likewise, Island Loop by Mike Ayers is not in an SNA.

[This message has been edited by CacheCows (edited 10-13-2003).]

[arffer]

Likewise, check again your position on Yawning Dog’s Europe Bay cache. The nearest SNA is .3 miles away to the cache’s south. This cache is not in an SNA.

[arffer]

You are correct regarding the cache(s) in Ellison Bay Bluff county park. However, this park only became an SNA in 2002, after my Cache in the Bluff cache was placed, and obviously the DNR didn’t let me know about it In any case, as I believe you know, my cache has been closed since Fall of last year. It is now permanently archived, and will not be restored due to the SNA. I can only assume Yawningdog would do the same, if you notify him. He may not accidentally stumble on this thread as I did.

[Author]

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