WI DOT Wayside caches

[cheezehead]

@greyhounder wrote:

I have some personal contacts with DOT Rest Areas. At this point they are VERY against geocaches in rest areas. They are not yet williing to make any changes on their stance, however, I do poke them from time to time. They are aware of Minnesota’s great geocaching policy, but are not interested in implementing their own. ……..

As a reviewer I cannot at this time publish caches in rest areas. I was given official word that geocaching is not allowed in rest areas. If someone submits a cache in a rest area, all I can do is ask that they make contact with the DOT. So far, the response has been the same (no).

Yes, there are currently geocaches in rest areas. Should they be archived? Probably. However, I like to think that by leaving them there, and showing the DOT that no problems have occurred as a result might be a good thing.

Something also to note — waysides are not under the jurisdiction of the DOT. They are fair game for geocache placement.

Bec

Bec, I ask these questions as a geocacher and you as a reviewer and other WI reviewers.

What is the difference between a wayside and a rest area?

Also, waysides ARE under the jurisdiction of the DOT. At least the ones in District 8. My father is retired 30 yr District Engineer for the W.I . DOT and had nothing to do with waysides and rest area. Thou some wayside are no longer run by the DOT and some are now run by counties, cities and towns.

OK. as a Ground Speak Reviewer, are caches not reviewed to see if they fit with in the Posted guidelines??? Permission needs to be granted.

What would happen if all of a sudden the DNR pull the plug ans said no more caches. They would all have to be achieved would they not?

This is a true store that happened a few years ago. A new cacher was heading along the Namekagon River. They found the cache, and signed the log and was walking the trail back. They came across NPS Park Ranger. He asked the what they where doing. They answered geocaching. He handed them a $180 ticket for trespassing.

Somewhere in the boards it was posted that the DOT considered this also trespassing. As a cacher, I am assuming that all caches are legally placed, because they had to go through a screening process to be published. So who is at fault? Groundspeak? The Reviewer? Or the Cacher? A $180 buys a lot of gas, ammo cans and swag.

In my opinion, it is the reviewers job to archive caches that do not meet the requirements and criteria for a cache. It is my opinion that ALL caches that are placed at WIS. DOT waysides & rest area should be achieved.

What does this show or tell the DOT? “We told them that they could not be there but yet they they are!”

If I’m a new cacher and want to put out a cache at a similar location but I am told “No you can’t because they are not allowed. I point out one at a different location and I am told ” that’s cache is not there or at least the DOT doesn’t think it’s there.

Again. please do take this post as a personal attack. It is in no way meant to be. I have asked these same questions to other reviewers and have never gotten an answer.

My father worked out of the Superior Office. He has given me some contact names. My plans for some time has been to stop by and have a little chat with these gentleman…with my father in tow. There is a cache at a the Rest Area just south of Superior. I’m hoping to use it as an example as it does get hit a lot.

[furfool]

Who is at fault for tresspassing? I have to say that it would be the cacher. Not too many years ago one could hunt on any land that was not posted. If the land owner did not want hunters there, it was his/her responsibilty to post the land. Then state law was changed to put the burden on the hunter to prove that he/she was not tresspassing.

“This is a true store that happened a few years ago. A new cacher was heading along the Namekagon River. They found the cache, and signed the log and was walking the trail back. They came across NPS Park Ranger. He asked the what they where doing. They answered geocaching. He handed them a $180 ticket for trespassing.” Not to be taken the wrong way, but I have a real hard time believeing this. I would think that a governmental entity would have something posted to warn someone if they were about to tresspass. Especially the Fed or State. I’ve never heard of government land totally off limits to the public, except military installations and such. And even those have signs posted. I wish I could be speaking from experience, but I’m not. Just my thoughts.

[rogheff]

I posted a note last year about rest areas. I was told by the DOT that it was illegal to geocache on DOT property! Does that clarify it?

[greyhounder]

Okay — here goes:

This is from Wikipedia:

A rest area, travel plaza, rest stop, or service area is a public facility, located next to a large thoroughfare such as a highway, expressway, or freeway at which drivers and passengers can rest, eat, or refuel. Other names include rest and service area (RSA), service station, resto, service plaza, and service center or service centre. Facilities may include park-like areas, fuel stations, restrooms, and restaurants. A rest area or rest stop with limited or no public facility is a parking area or scenic area. Along some highways are a rest stop known as a wayside park, roadside park or picnic area. Rest areas are common in the United States, Canada, Australia and parts of Europe and Asia

Here is the definition from the WI-DOT:

Welcome to Wisconsin’s rest areas and waysides. Our facilities can be found along the highways throughout the state, providing motorists a convenient opportunity to stop and rest. Rest areas are located on the Interstate highway system and other major four-lane highways and are open all year round. Waysides are generally located on two-lane highways and are usually open seasonally. We make every effort to make your visit enjoyable.

Our 32 rest areas have:

* Handicap accessibility
* Ample car and truck parking
* Clean restroom facilities
* Drinking water
* Picnic areas
* Telephones
* Weather monitors at most locations
* A place to walk your pet
* Snacks, soft drinks or newspapers from the vending services located at most locations
* Road maps, literature and other traveler information
* Some rest areas feature Wisconsin Welcome Centers with Department of Tourism personnel available to provide information and answer questions
* Historical facts and events are commemorated on Wisconsin Historical Marker plaques located on-site

Our waysides are more rustic in nature and feature parking, toilet facilities, drinking water and picnic areas on a smaller scale. Many waysides are located in scenic locations for your enjoyment. Waysides are generally open from early May through late October.

As I was told by our Rest Area Maintenance crew — a rest area is regularly maintained and has running water/plumbed facilities. A wayside is maintained less often and typically does not have running water or bathroom facilities (sometimes there is a hand pump for water or pit toilets).

You are correct, some waysides are still under the control of the WI-DOT, while others are now owned by counties, cities and towns.

These are the rest areas and waysides owned by the WI-DOT.

Yes, all caches are reviewed to see if they meet the geocaching.com guidelines. If permission is required a cache is disabled, giving the cache owner the opportunity to seek permission. I have disabled caches submitted at Wisconsin rest areas and asked the hider to contact the DOT to see if permission can be granted. Since I started reviewing, all people placing caches at rest areas and asking permission have been denied.

And as we saw with caches placed in SNAs, when the DNR asked us to archive these caches (even the virtuals) it was done quickly and without (too much) complaint. If the DNR does later decide that caches are not allowed on their property, you are correct, they will be archived. Although with all the relationship building that has occurred between the WGA and the DNR, I’m hopeful this will never happen.

After I read cheezehead’s post, I went back to look at the policy that the DOT has on geocaching. Here is what it says:

Geocaching at Wisconsin Roadside Facilities

Geocaching at Wisconsin Department of Transportation Roadside Facilities is not permitted at Department roadside facilities.

Wisconsin Department of Transportation Policy:

“The Wisconsin Department of Transportation has reviewed geocaching activity information in March 2005 and has indicated that it will not be allowed at Department roadside facilities. This is something that the Department cannot allow at rest areas, Wisconsin Welcome Center’s, or even at their waysides for reasons of liability/safety. They do not wish to open the door to other activities such as paintball, regular sports activities/leagues, ultimate frisbee, etc. all of which present problems. They will not allow any of this type of activity at any of their roadside facilities. Any geocaching activity that has already been initiated should be terminated. The Department has no problem with this “geocaching” activity in and of itself – it just doesn’t belong in the Department’s roadside facilities.”

Obviously, they are not that well informed about geocaching and its impact. I’m working really hard to try to correct this.

You also note the line, “Any geocaching activity that has already been initiated should be terminated.” Although I’ve read that line before, it really stood out to me this time.

The DOT does not perform the actual maintenance of the rest areas. Typically is is performed by organizations, such as the one I work for, that provides employment opportunities for individuals with barriers. The DOT does regular inspections of the rest areas, but do not know of the daily goings-on at their facilities.

I have spoken to several people who manage the maintenance of these facilities. Most are impartial to actually in favor of having geocaches at rest areas. Some know where they are even and have checked on them from time to time. I have even had a cache submission from Welcome Center rest area staff.

I think the thing that irks me the most about all of this is that the DOT is not even willing to start a dialog in regards to geocaching and its impact on rest areas. They have never been interested in speaking to the WGA or Groundspeak about their policy. Granted, it is published on the internet. Had I not been personally told that there was a policy against geocaching, we as a group, and those of us who review caches, would not be aware of this policy.

I don’t think there would actually be an criminal action to follow if someone is “caught” geocaching. Once, one of the DOT RAM officials hinted to me that fines could be a possiblity, but I don’t how they could enforce that (people wander around rest areas all the time). And then there is the geocaching disclaimer:

Geocaching Disclaimer

Geocaching.com is owned and operated by Groundspeak Inc. Information in the Geocaching.com database is updated regularly. Neither Groundspeak Inc., nor any agent, officer, employee or volunteer administrator of Groundspeak Inc. warrants the accuracy, reliability, or timeliness of any information and shall not be liable for any losses caused by such reliance on the accuracy, reliability, or timeliness of such information. While every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this information, portions may be incorrect or not current. Any person or entity that relies on information obtained from Geocaching.com does so at his or her own risk.

Geocaching, hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities involve risk to both persons and property. There are many variables including, but not limited to, weather, fitness level, terrain features and outdoor experience, that must be considered prior to seeking or placing a Cache. Be prepared for your journey and be sure to check the current weather and conditions before heading outdoors. Always exercise common sense and caution.

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Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

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Groundspeak Inc. reserves the right to change the terms, conditions, and notices under which this website is offered.

But bottom line, you are correct, geocaches should not be at rest areas. Wis Kid and I need to chat….

Bec

[greyhounder]

Wow — now I’m really tired…..

Bec

[Team Hemisphere Dancer]

That was well said Bec.

I am tired too..

[cheezehead]

@furfool wrote:

Who is at fault for tresspassing? I have to say that it would be the cacher. Not too many years ago one could hunt on any land that was not posted. If the land owner did not want hunters there, it was his/her responsibilty to post the land. Then state law was changed to put the burden on the hunter to prove that he/she was not tresspassing.

“This is a true store that happened a few years ago. A new cacher was heading along the Namekagon River. They found the cache, and signed the log and was walking the trail back. They came across NPS Park Ranger. He asked the what they where doing. They answered geocaching. He handed them a $180 ticket for trespassing.” Not to be taken the wrong way, but I have a real hard time believeing this. I would think that a governmental entity would have something posted to warn someone if they were about to tresspass. Especially the Fed or State. I’ve never heard of government land totally off limits to the public, except military installations and such. And even those have signs posted. I wish I could be speaking from experience, but I’m not. Just my thoughts.

I speak of the truth as I talked to the NPS officer myself. The grounds that this cache was placed IS OPEN to hunting, camping canoing and almost anything else you could do. The simple truth is geocaching is not allowed in this part of the river. Since this has happened, I have worked with NPS officer along with a couple former reviewers and have gotten a change that allows caches along the river that IS NOT NPS PROPERTY but does lie within the boundaries of the river. Also, I have been informed that the Director of The St. Croix Scenic River way and his staff are looking into changing their policy about geocaching. They are to have/had their meeting this month to go over it.

This fall I was at a landing. A NPS ranger truck pulled up. I was just letting my dog swim. It was the NPS ranger that I have talked many times to. (My GPSr was in the truck! 😉 ) I started talking to him about geocaching. He tells me he if for it. He does not see anything wrong with it, but he has to enforce the rules that are in place now.

He points over to a tree and says” that would be a good place for a cache to hide.” I look like this 😯 . “HUH?” I ask. “I didn’t think one could be placed there.” He points, “There yes, over there no.” ” What’s the diff?” I ask. “On that side of the road is DNR Property, on this side is Park service property. ” he tells me. ” Sooooooo if I were to get DNR permission, you would sign off on a request?” “Yup!” He says’s with a smile.

[cheezehead]

Bec, I hate to say it, but that is not the complete map or is does not include waysides, which are owned by the DOT. Off the top of my head I can think of a half a dozen in this area.

[greyhounder]

@cheezehead wrote:

Bec, I hate to say it, but that is not the complete map or is does not include waysides, which are owned by the DOT. Off the top of my head I can think of a half a dozen in this area.

That’s the only map they give on their website. Odd that it’s not all-inclusive.

I’ll do a little more research…

Bec

[greyhounder]

Okay, go here and click on seasonal waysides. That’ll give you a big map where you can click on regions.

Interestingly, the Seasonal Site Summary gives GPS coordinates….

Bec

[furfool]

Thanks for the added info cheezehead. I just don’t understand one’s thinking. If all of these other activities are allowed, why not caching? As far as I’m concerned, caching is a glorified walk/hike. Ok, so you look inside of things and behind things, all the while being observant. Common sense I guess. Some have it, others don’t.

[Team Deejay]

I step away from the forum for one day and all hell breaks loose! 😀

Seriously, this is a bit of a problem. Becky and I are discussing the best approach to deal with the existing caches in rest areas, but I suspect they will be disappearing soon. In the meantime, if there are some which you feel were placed without permission, please email one of us, as it is not exactly easy for us to find these (especially the waysides).

From the discussion above, it sounds like there is some confusion as to what we normally do when reviewing the cache. While there are many things we need to check, our direction from Groundspeak is to assume the person has obtained permission unless we have reason to suspect they don’t. This probably begs the question: what is suspicious? First, if you post a note in the description indicating that “so and so has given permission for this cache”, we are going to believe you. If you don’t post any indication, here are the red flags.

– Residential areas
– Commercial property, such as strip malls, restaurants and gas stations
– Churches and schools
– Fire Departments, Police Stations, Government Administration Buildings, Jails and Prisons (had one of these today!)
– Agricultural areas, especially plowed fields
– Utility installations
– and now, DOT rest areas

Additionally we check for DNR notification, City of Madison and Dane County permits, and immediately archive listings in the Apostle Islands NL. Many of you are aware of the rules we are using with the St Croix NSR, so we check for that as well.

Unfortunately, if someone places a cache in what looks like a county park, but turns out to be a private land, we might not catch that. If you run into this situation, just let Becky or I know and we will take care of it.

[rogheff]

We discussed this once before in this thread: http://wi-geocaching.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6011

I don’t see the gray area here. It seems pretty black and white to me. The DOT doesn’t want geocaching on their property – period

Upon asking for approval for a geocache at a rest area outside Poynette, I received the following reply:

“Mr. Heffron:

Thank you for your inquiry. The Wisconsin Department of Transportation
has reviewed geocaching activities and does not allow it in rest areas,
welcome centers or seasonal waysides for reasons of liability and safety.

Robert Spoerl
WisDOT – DTSD – Bureau of Highway Operations”

If I placed a cache without permission where the property owner posted a no trespassing sign, I guess I’d expect at some point, it would be removed. How is this different?

I think they should be allowed. It’s a great idea for a way to break up a long trip. I have personally found them in most of the wayside areas around the state.

but they aren’t supposed to be there.

[elfdoctors]

Unless we get specific instructions from the DOT to remove them, I’d recommend keeping the existing ones because I believe the issue is still in flux. They know that some geocaches are in waysides currently.

I had the opportunity to talk personally to my state representative, Ann Hraychuck, who serves on both the Natural Resources and Transportation committees. I’ve told her that I’d adopted a wayside cache (which had originally been placed by a Burnett County police officer). I believe that she was going to try to get the transportation people to talk with the DNR people.

Hopefully the misguided current policy will be updated.

[PCFrog]

@elfdoctors wrote:

Unless we get specific instructions from the DOT to remove them, I’d recommend keeping the existing ones because I believe the issue is still in flux.

I’ve known about this issue for quite some time since I myself asked the DOT about placing a cache and was directed to their notice. To me, it has already been made clear that geocaching was to stop. Thier only fault was not telling GC.com or the WGA directly. However, once the WGA is aware of the policy the WGA/Approvers are liable for not following the policy.

[Author]

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