Wisconsin gets toasted again

[3 Hawks]

Maybe we should all be like Little Rover. He rarely logs his finds at all. I guess he is far more evolved than the rest of us. He has grown past logging smiley faces and is at one with nature.

I think a few in this string are missing the point a bit. 95% of the event temps I’ve found were hidden better than all of those dead end/guard rail caches littering the US. Don’t get me wrong. I like a quick dead end/guard rail cache just as much as the next person.

I’ve never done any of the BoB caches in Chicago, but I’m fairly sure a good chunk of the temps I’ve logged were better hides than the majority of the BoB’s. I see that some local cachers were able to knock out all or most of the BoB’s in a day. Did anyone complain about people logging the BoB’s as 99 finds? Maybe they should only count as one smiley.

Additionally, I’m of the opinion that avoiding an event that has temps, just because they have temps, is a rather…umm…odd stance on the subject. I’ve got a young daughter and a job. Therefore, you won’t see me in the Upper Peninsula very often and you won’t see me making a trip all of the way up there just to chat and look at someones collection of geocoins.

So if I decide to follow your prescribed course; I should just avoid any local event because I’ve already found most of the caches in the area. Then I wouldn’t have to waste my time and I could go somewhere else to find “REAL” caches.

An event is intended to bring people together for a group experience. Just meeting for a huddle and then heading off in your own direction to hunt “REAL” caches you’ve not already found kind of defeats the purpose of an event.

Why even bother to drive all that way if we could just decide to all log into the chat room at the same time to view someones on-line coin collection. We could gab a bit, share some stories, and we could all head off on our own to find “REAL” caches. We could just call it a “Virtual Event.”

The definition of a “REAL” cache is not based simply on finding any old container. I get coords, I head into the woods, I find a container with a log in it, I sign the log, and then I re-hide it for the next cacher. That sure sounds like a “REAL” cache to me.

What isn’t REAL to you may be to someone else. I’ve seen a lot of “REAL” lame caches out there and I’ve seen some “REAL” challenging temp hides. Groundspeak should come out with a REALCACHE-O-METER so that we don’t have to decide for ourselves what is “REAL” and what is not “REAL”.

Is a BONUS cache any less “REAL” than an event cache? What is the difference? The only difference is that one is attached to a permanent cache and one is attached to an event. Attach the event caches as bonus caches to a permanent cache placed in honor of the event, attend the event, jabber all you want at the event, exchange stories, laugh, swap TB’s and GC’s, admire GC collections, put faces to names, meet new people, take the time to show a newbie the ropes, load up the temp coords, head out and find the temps, and log them under the permanent cache as bonus finds. You’d only log one event attend and the rest would be BONUS finds. REAL smileys for REAL caches all logged under REAL caches with REAL GC#’s. That would leave ’em scratching their heads for a bit.

The easiest was to fight against any irrational argument is to give them what they want. Just do it in a way that they had not anticipated and watch ’em squirm, back track, and change direction. It’s like watching a squirrel trying to cross the road. Many get run over and you never see them again.

[jenhen1]

I would agree that for a truly quality geocaching experience, cache the UP. Some absolutely FANTASTIC caches up there!

Guess I’ll weigh in as a member of the non-vocal majority. I am uncomfortable myself logging temp caches that do not appear on GC.COM, but that’s not to say it’s wrong, because the rules are set up to allow you to do it. If the founders who run the website think it’s wrong, then the rules will be changed.

It’s simply a matter of your own ethics. The rules also allow me to log my own caches as a find, and to log caches I have already found more than once. Ethically, I’m not comfortable doing any of these things, but other people may not find anything wrong with it.

In other words, it seems to me the game, aside from some common sense rules, is set up to basically play it as you like. Ethically, I’m also not comfortable criticizing others for the way they play a game where the rules are so open to interpretation. There’s no right or wrong answer. Play it as you want to play it until the rule makers tell you that you can’t.

Sure makes for a fun debate, though! A healthy constructive debate is what will spur action if it is indeed necessary.

[The Lil Otter]

I saw a better way down in IL at an Event.. (years ago) What they did was make/hide actual ‘approved’ caches a few weeks before the event.. then had the approver ‘release’ them online a day or two before the event.. had printouts or downloads with these newly created caches at the event, for those that didn’t get a chance to grab them from online.

All I’d wish to happen after that is to have a few of the board members (or volunteers) walk to each and check out the condition of the cache, after the event. They then could post a need to “archive” any that have been too abusive to the lands.

Each year we in Wisconsin get hammered for all these multi “attends”… we then mentor newer players that it’s alright to do this to “score” up the temps.. We have so many caches in Wisconsin that those wishing to only “cache” could find plenty within each area.. As I have said before.. Events were changed from “found it” to “attended”… I saw that as GC.com’s polite way to mentor us.. I would have found it highly embarrassing for any to question my count (my integrity)… with stating I attended multi times at an event, so that was why I had not logged temps after “attended” came into the picture.. as well as to change my past finds of temps to Notes… It changed none of my memories of each hide.. nor did it take away from all the adventures I had at the events..

We can keep playing the game as we all wish to.. but I’ve also heard of events/temps being abused (none really hidden) where those ‘event temps’ were just there to add “points”.. Back when I was a board leader, we used to check ‘stamped’ books to have them ‘qualify’ as ‘legal’ temp cache “finds”… is that yet done? It is the responsibility of the cache/event owner to remove/delete faked logs… but we call it the “honor” system.. we change the rules to suit our own needs.. yet we worry that no one would come to events if no temps are hidden.. I proved that wrong with my CITO Rochi-a-Cri event.. we busted butt and had a blast… so do we keep looking for ways to get around GC’s rules on legal caches (so those can Count) or do we actually hide caches that can stand on their own and be enjoyed by others after the event is long over?

Just my thoughts again on this subject,
~The Lil Otter

[SammyClaws]

So who does come up with the rules for the game. Someone/group came up with “no closer than .1 mile” and “no tobacco, firearms, knives.. in cache”. (Personally, I really would like to set up an adult cache … a Captain Morgan treasure chest of adult refreshments – just kidding)

So who ever it is that makes these rules, why not go to them and ask for a definitive answer???

[3 Hawks]

I’d just like to add that I did not mean to bash anyone’s personal decisions or opinions regarding this issue. I will sometimes voice an extreme opinion just to see the response.

Productive growth and change is only attained by bringing together people with drastically opposed views. If everyone in WI voiced the consensus opinion that it’s a personal decision; we’d never have a meaningful discussion into the matter.

I could argue the other extreme just as easily but that would draw more flack than I’m willing to deal with.

You should have seen the debate I had with a Houston area cacher over some of the caches they placed for the Modern Day Outlaw Quest. We debated directly instead of through the forum. We got a little mean at times but we could tell that the other was not getting overly offended. We made sure not to cross the line. We eventually came to a mutual agreement on the topic and we’ve been e-mailing back and forth about other issues not related to the Quest.

[GOJeepers]

@SammyClaws wrote:

So who ever it is that makes these rules, why not go to them and ask for a definitive answer???

That’s the thing…..the folks at GC.com have been asked this very question many times by many people and they have never responded. The closest thing to an answer anyone has ever heard is that each state’s caching group (i.e. WGA) can set their own rules regarding temps. But then no one here can agree either and we go around in circles after each event.

The official stance of WGA is that the temps are “allowed”. If you don’t want to log them, fine. Just don’t look down on me for logging mine.

Sara

[EnergySaver]

My 2 cents … this is the sort of discussion that will never really come to any results. Here’s the real problem … GC.Com is “wishy washy” on this, PERIOD …

#1
By not giving you a way to log temporary caches, they’re sending the message: Do Not Count Temp Caches.

#2
I couple years back when they eliminated the “Found” choice on Event Caches and replaced it with “Attended”, they sent the message: Stop Counting Events as Caches Found.

#3
When the powers that be at GC.Com, when asked, say they don’t care which you do, they send the message: We are not commenting on our reasons for #1 and #2 above.

… The whole problem is not having a solid answer from GC.Com verbally/written that either agrees with their actions on the website (ie. No Temp Logs), or explains away the reason for the website changes. Until the day one or the other happens, it’s all an endless discussion.

[zuma]

@The Lil Otter wrote:

I saw a better way down in IL at an Event.. (years ago) What they did was make/hide actual ‘approved’ caches a few weeks before the event.. then had the approver ‘release’ them online a day or two before the event.. had printouts or downloads with these newly created caches at the event, for those that didn’t get a chance to grab them from online.

All I’d wish to happen after that is to have a few of the board members (or volunteers) walk to each and check out the condition of the cache, after the event. They then could post a need to “archive” any that have been too abusive to the lands.

Each year we in Wisconsin get hammered for all these multi “attends”… we then mentor newer players that it’s alright to do this to “score” up the temps.. We have so many caches in Wisconsin that those wishing to only “cache” could find plenty within each area.. As I have said before.. Events were changed from “found it” to “attended”… I saw that as GC.com’s polite way to mentor us.. I would have found it highly embarrassing for any to question my count (my integrity)… with stating I attended multi times at an event, so that was why I had not logged temps after “attended” came into the picture.. as well as to change my past finds of temps to Notes… It changed none of my memories of each hide.. nor did it take away from all the adventures I had at the events..

We can keep playing the game as we all wish to.. but I’ve also heard of events/temps being abused (none really hidden) where those ‘event temps’ were just there to add “points”.. Back when I was a board leader, we used to check ‘stamped’ books to have them ‘qualify’ as ‘legal’ temp cache “finds”… is that yet done? It is the responsibility of the cache/event owner to remove/delete faked logs… but we call it the “honor” system.. we change the rules to suit our own needs.. yet we worry that no one would come to events if no temps are hidden.. I proved that wrong with my CITO Rochi-a-Cri event.. we busted butt and had a blast… so do we keep looking for ways to get around GC’s rules on legal caches (so those can Count) or do we actually hide caches that can stand on their own and be enjoyed by others after the event is long over?

Just my thoughts again on this subject,
~The Lil Otter

Hi Lil Otter,

Always great to hear the wisened words of the godmother of Wisconsin geocaching. Thanks for posting your views.

My own view is that geocaching is a very very young sport, and that it takes time to sort out the “rules” for any sport. We all want to play by the “rules,” that is, to the extent that the “score” matters. If the score is of no concern to us personally, than “rules” are not needed. But if the count is important to us personally, then the rules become quite important.

The problem is that this is still a very new sport, and the rulemakers, gc.com, have been, as others have wisely pointed out “wishy-washy” in defining the rules. I think we are, and will continue to be for a while, in a state of flux. Given that, we all need to be tolerant and accepting of our fellow cachers, and respect the diveristy of viewpoints. We also need to be willing to accept change, guidance from others, and what you call mentoring.

Thanks again, LO, for posting your viewpoint.

zuma

[I M WU]

@3 Hawks wrote:

An event is intended to bring people together for a group experience. Just meeting for a huddle and then heading off in your own direction to hunt “REAL” caches you’ve not already found kind of defeats the purpose of an event.

Why even bother to drive all that way if we could just decide to all log into the chat room at the same time to view someones on-line coin collection. We could gab a bit, share some stories, and we could all head off on our own to find “REAL” caches. We could just call it a “Virtual Event.”

Great Points! I attended one event so far, and had a great time…except for one unpleasant geocacher encounter, which was resolved, and which became part of my geocaching experience. The event was so well put together and attended. If there are no rules to follow, just do what makes you feel good, until the powers that be change the rules. Que Sera Sera.

[greyhounder]

Here’s my question, who would NOT attend at WGA event if it had NO temporary caches? Imagine that the area had plenty of regular caches to be sought (okay — not 60, but you get my point)

Bec

[Team Hemisphere Dancer]

@greyhounder wrote:

Here’s my question, who would NOT attend at WGA event if it had NO temporary caches? Imagine that the area had plenty of regular caches to be sought (okay — not 60, but you get my point)

Bec

Being I only hunted 3 temps at the last campout I guess I would. I like them for the socializing. Temps are just another thing to do at them but not the reason I go to them.

[bnb]

I would continue to attend, but I have to admit that the favorite part of events is being able to geocache with other people – something I don’t do much of normally. Plus, the people I geocache with at events do not live anywhere near me so this is my only opportunity to do this.

However, if there were some local caches nearby to do this on, that could make up for it. The downside would be that I like being able to walk and/or bike with the people while we search.

No temps would not keep me away. I would still get to be social with my geo-friends – just not on the trail as much.

Ruth

[Team Deejay]

The presence of temps has no effect on our choice to attend. The presence of new permanent caches would greatly increase the chance I would attend. The presence of people that we like would guarantee attendance.

[3 Hawks]

Hey, what’s wrong with having your cake and eating it too.

CITO events are fun because of the opportunity to give something back to the community and because of the company you enjoy while doing it. Camp-outs and picnics are a great opportunity to socialize. Basics Workshops are an excellent way to bring people into the fold.

I’d have gone to Green & Gold’s Superbowl event even if there hadn’t been any temps. He put a lot of work into making those temps just as challenging as any permanent. He braved dangerous wind chills placing the caches and we braved those extreme conditions to find an log them.

Uncle_Fun’s pizza social was a blast. We socialized our butts off. No temps there. Albeit, there were a few pocket caches.

The All-A Glow was a blast. We could have stayed under the shelter to stay dry, but the majority of us ventured off into the dark to find temp caches in a real gully washer of a rain storm.

Some events are geared towards socializing, some are geared towards hunting temps, and some events give you the opportunity to do it all. Some prefer one type of event over the others for any number of personal reasons.

Let’s not interject guilt or shame into the discussion about how we do things here. Don’t use words such as ethics when describing your own personal practices because that implies that anyone who does not do things your way is unethical in your eyes. That might be offensive to some who are not as “enlightened” and “wise.” Just remember, enlightenment and wisdom are relative. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Don’t change your approach just because you are afraid of what someone from the coast, who has never attended one of our events, thinks. Lets hold our brats, cheese, and beer up high and do it our way/your way.

In summary; I want temps, cake, brats, cheese, beer, fun, and great people. Anyone know where I can find that?

[Cheesehead Dave]

@greyhounder wrote:

Here’s my question, who would NOT attend at WGA event if it had NO temporary caches? Imagine that the area had plenty of regular caches to be sought (okay — not 60, but you get my point)

Bec

I’d like to ask a follow-up question: Who would NOT attend a WGA event if there were still temp caches to be found, but you were discouraged from logging them all separately. Instead, there would be some sort of a contest involving the temps you found (e.g. A raffle where you got one ticket for each temp found.)

[Author]

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