[seldom|seen]

@terribletom wrote:

We must prevail however… to let these things beat us down would be a very sad thing. I say we should all pull together and help make our caching community the best it can be!

All apologies for bringing so many cachers down just when the weather is starting to get us all geared up for spring. I hope everyone will except my apology, especially those who were affected by anything I might have said or done to encourage their own response to the puzzle touring in the valley or by any attempts to squash puzzle tours.

Having received so many responses like this one, echos of encouragement, notes of appreciation and respect for what I try to bring to the sport, it’s obvious to me now that I have more to give than can be taken away by the acts of a few thoughtless cachers. Couple that with the realization that I won’t be able to find homes for all of mine and am having a hard time stomaching the idea of archiving many of them having invested so much time, energy and expense into them, not to mention many personal life experiences, and I just can’t run away with the ball as a sore looser.

I do need a little time away to determine which of mine I am still going to adopt out to others and to figure out how to modify the many puzzle solves a certain cacher has so he can’t simply go back to the hides once they are enabled again. Hence the global disable this morning, because it is also going to require time, but slowly but surely many of my caches will return. All I ask is that you be patient with me and if I don’t respond right away to adoption inquires, know that I am considering them all and am very grateful for every single one of you who has stepped up and shown me support and or offered to adopt caches.

Better, brighter days are ahead….

[seldom|seen]

I know your caches mean as much to you as mine do to me and can imagine the waves of emotion your first archive – after more that 3 years of keeping all of those caches active, well maintained and well stocked with enticing trackables – must have elicited in your gut.

Mine was never the intent to start a wave of archiving activity in the valley or beyond and I am now realizing not only how broad the sentiments about cheapening the sport are around the state, but also how committed my caching piers are to keeping the sport pure in their hearts by preferring to archive many rather than adopt them out.

Shane, Dave, and Mike. You guys represent the purest intent of the sport; to savor, experience, and remember the most rewarding aspects of caching. I am honored to be among the company of so many with so much conviction of character. I wish I could adopt some of these myself for the memories they hold, but I can’t find homes for half of my own . The decision to call it has become overwhelming now that I am faced with archiving so many memorable and worthwhile caches. I thought it would be easier to do. It is not, in fact it’s excruciating, painful and sad.

To think this has all precipitated from the reckless action of a single cacher who has yet to offer up a single apology to anyone and moreover, continues to think that he hasn’t done anything wrong because he didn’t violate any specific rule of the sport. He fails to see or comprehend the emotional toll his actions have taken on many of the most prolific and creative cachers in the valley and cannot see that that is where his transgression lies, not in some arbitrary definition of how the sport is supposed to be played.

I am thankful for all of the support of the caching community has given us as a whole. I am encouraged by the actions of the few mentioned above which has only bolstered my conviction that ethically a line was indeed crossed. I am saddened by the knowledge that these destructive practices were not acknowledged by a body we elected to monitor the sport in Wisconsin. That no one has has the conviction of character to come out and say this was wrong. Not the individual responsible, not GC.com, not the WGA whose many members have close ties to the individual responsible and who, I am quite sure, as a collective voice could have made an impact on that person.

So here I sit, looking at all that I have created and realizing what a collossal waste it would be to archive even half of them, robbing so many other cachers of memorable experiences, but knowing full well that the puzzle touring will not stop, nor be acknowledged for what it is. I don’t know what the future holds for geocaching but the events of the past couple weeks and indeed months does not bode well for the sport which will more and more be distilled to “how many slips of paper did you sign today?”

[seldom|seen]

@gotta run wrote:

Edit: Never mind. Just jousting at windmills.

…see page 1

And BTW, that was some really scary %(*)#& you found GR on the Anti-bush violence. When I say chill, I mean everybody. Beheadings and a fake movie about his assassination… C’mom people. I didn’t like his as president and couldn’t stand his smirk, but never wished him personal physical harm. Impeachment for certifiable war crimes – if they could be proven, sure. But death? No.

[seldom|seen]

@PCFrog wrote:

On a positive note…

Your adoption or archiveal of caches will at least follow your own words.

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:30 am
@seldom|seen wrote:

caching community would benefit from a voluntary cache review and archive commitment from its members, to make space for new and/or better caches.

@seldom|seen wrote:

So , I propose a voluntary annual portfolio review of your cache holdings to determine if you own any cache listings that could be moved, offered up for adoption or archived to open up space for others to place new caches. I am thinking something like 5-10% of your caches. For most cachers that would translate to 1 or 2 caches. For me it is closer to 10 caches and for someone like Ecorangers… well that’s a lot.

Lots of space opening up around here PC Frog, another handful from a protegee were archived this morning. That must be nearly 50 puzzles archived by gotta-run and -cheeto- in the past couple months. At this rate the Valley is going to look nothing like it did last year, already doesn’t. Let the 1/1 hides begin…

[seldom|seen]

@-cheeto- wrote:

I have some caches I would like to adopt out rather than archive.

Appleton area:
Z̦e Bro Coup | de Sabre РGC17W4Q
Zeroes to Heroes | Gaylord Nelson – GC225AN

My Historic Neenah series is spoken for.

Good to see your Historic series is spoken for. Also very fitting that the tributee of the Zöe Bro Coup cache series got that one. But, shouldn’t 2 ol Farts have been handed the reigns to Gaylord a while back? Or did they not follow through as my partner did not on the final?

[seldom|seen]

@CodeJunkie wrote:

A bittersweet day today as I complete the S|S series that got me hooked on puzzles turning me into a PuzzleJunkie and took over watch duty on the same series for the legend.

Logging the final for this series caused a few tears because of the great memories and the great mentoring provided by S|S.

You guys are all starting to get to me…

I want everyone to know that I am not one for ego stroking and that my ID is intact. I just reached a point of super-frustration. It’s becoming more and more obvious to me there are so many more cachers who respect this CO’s wishes than than that don’t. It is not going unnoticed…

[seldom|seen]

@PCFrog wrote:

On a positive note…

Your adoption or archiveal of caches will at least follow your own words.

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:30 am
@seldom|seen wrote:

caching community would benefit from a voluntary cache review and archive commitment from its members, to make space for new and/or better caches.

@seldom|seen wrote:

So , I propose a voluntary annual portfolio review of your cache holdings to determine if you own any cache listings that could be moved, offered up for adoption or archived to open up space for others to place new caches. I am thinking something like 5-10% of your caches. For most cachers that would translate to 1 or 2 caches. For me it is closer to 10 caches and for someone like Ecorangers… well that’s a lot.

35 down, 200 to go. I’m up to 15%

[seldom|seen]

@gotta run wrote:

I agree that making threats crosses the line, and obviously doing bodily injury or property damage does as well. For instance, biting the finger off a 75-year old man who was protesting health care reform…slashing the tires of 20 vehicles at a campaign headquarters in Milwaukee…spraying campaign workers with mace…Yeah, I would agree that behavior all crosses the line. (Trying to remember when that occurred…memory a bit foggy I’m afraid.)

And making a movie called “Death of a President?” Well I guess that’s protected, albeit in very bad taste.

Each end of the political spectrum has its lunatic fringe, but we must be careful that disagreement and debate is not criminalized. Unfortunately, it is all too easy for the ruling class to cast any criticism as inciteful “hate speech” that must be squelched. Or to put it another way…

I’m sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration.

–Hillary Clinton

Agreed on all counts. Violence perpetrated against a pro-life activist is the same as violence perpetrated against a pro-choice activist. It’s wrong, plain and simple. There are extremists on both sides, just as there are crooked politicians on both sides, and when any of them infringe upon on the individual liberties afforded by the constitution and the universal declaration of human rights, their actions are criminal in my book and they should be held accountable.

[seldom|seen]

@Jstajlr wrote:

WWJD? Heal himself, no need for healthcare is my guess.

… and then approach the leper without health care and heal him as well, and let the prostitute take care of his feet, and give the homeless a few fish, some bread and something to drink, instead of money… you get my meaning.

[seldom|seen]

@gotta run wrote:

Edit: Never mind. Just jousting at windmills.

ditto – mentally spent – want this round over with and done – want radicals to put down the bricks and bolt cutters and chill out – you need to vent on inanimate objects, fine. But physical bodily harm is going too far – protest if you have to, I do, but do it in a non-violent fashion – WWJD do comes to mind as does the oft mentioned serenity prayer

[seldom|seen]

My head hurts. Maybe it’s the residual vitriol from other things going on in the country spilling over, but it’s just be very hard to find the enjoyment in puzzle caching of late. I’ve decided to give it a brake, but it seems like the rest of us could use some introspection as well.

The first thing I’ve noticed, because I am ENTIRELY at fault myself, is pushing dialogue better left to PM’s or e-mail into the public forum. It doesn’t always work, but I’ve been trying to stay clear of posts that get me agitated until enough time has passed or enough others have commented so I can cool down and take in the wisdom of the community before I respond with inflammatory remarks, and I’ve had my share. I just flammed someone yesterday without thinking and had to apologize for being over-reactive, when a simple cordial PM would have cleared the matter up in seconds, and done so in private.

The second thing I pick up on, is this generalization of puzzles. There is such a diversity of puzzle complexity and content and intent, and yet we often assume they all fit into a single category. If we work on any of them for any period of time, it seems we deserve the right to claim a find when we have the solve, even if the cache is no longer there. As one of the most prolific puzzle owners, I’ll always ere on the side of the solve. If you make the solve, the find to me is nearly always inconsequential. In fact, if the category were still around, most of mine would probably be virtual caches. Now wouldn’t that irritate the heck out of puzzle tours! Imagine 150 virtuals in the valley that you’d HAVE to solve to get the find.

I just got an e-mail yesterday about a puzzle where the cacher has “over a hundred hours” into it and is not closer to a solve. Yikes!!!! I’ve said it before, if you go over 2 hours, for cripes sake, give me shout and I’ll give you something. But then, it’s a puzzle that only one person has solved. And despite how much it pangs me to do it, I am trying to not give too much away to this cacher, who I very much respect and feel terrible about the time they’ve invested. From the outside looking in, the whole thing is outrageous. Seriously, who wants to spend more than an hour trying to solve any puzzle, NOT ME! But from the inside, with only one true solver I don’t just want to give it away either. So, I posted some more clues and am keeping my fingers crossed that it will be enough!

I feel terrible when cachers go beyond what I think is an exceptable amount of time on a puzzle and wish there were some way to better rate the nature of puzzle to spare some people the waste of time. For the most part I create puzzle that can be solved just by going through the subject matter and most of them shouldn’t take anyone more than an hour. There are a select few that fall into the “many hours” category and all I can say to those who try, don’t be afraid to ask for clues when you reach the point of frustration. For some that’s 15 minutes (like me) for others that’s a dozen hours. In all cases, I’ll help when you ask.

As I make my slow departure, I will do what I have always done, be courteous and responsive to anyone who invests the time to get out of my puzzles what I put in. Respect for the CO should result in respect for the CH(hunter), bottom line and vice versa.

[seldom|seen]

Well done, and I too thought you’d be far beyond that number. There’s a cache container on the workbench with the note “CJ’s 500th” on it. Putting that one together, in and of itself, almost makes me want to stick around a little longer, at least long enough to get that one out. If I’m still here, give me a little warning when you get to 475, if not, good luck on your future caching experiences, I too have lived vicariously through many of your logs…

[seldom|seen]

@-cheeto- wrote:

Warning, off-topic post but s|s dragged me in here.

The day I learned of a list of my puzzle solves being shared with others was a disheartening day for me.

Play the game how you want everyone says.

Well having my puzzle cache solves handed to others is not how I want to play the game as a cache owner.

I am glad many have enjoyed what I have created and my sincere apologies to those of you who have solved my puzzles but not had a chance to log them. I have let you down. Hopefully you can still respect me and what I have given back to the geocaching community.

I am not leaving the world of geocaching nor am I archiving all of my caches. I’m just going to focus my free-time on what matters most.

I wish Alex all the luck in finding good homes for his creations. I’ve enjoyed many of them and would not trade those experiences or what I’ve learned from him for anything.

Sorry, -cheeto-, I didn’t meant to mischaracterize your response to the tour, only to point out that you did directly respond to it by archiving many caches that took you many hours to create, as have others in the area. Some view all of this as a spat between two cachers and I want to make it clear that it is a larger rift of caching ethics at play, that the continuing trend of touring unsolved puzzle caches for numbers is going to illicit similar responses in the future.

What matters most to me in this sport is the puzzle itself and it puts me instantly at odds with the basic tenants of the game. This I’ve know and dealt with and while I might roll my eyes when a puzzle is logged by accident or a group of caching buddies logs a puzzle en masse, I’m pretty forgiving – as long as there’s some recognition of the purpose behind the existence of the cache in the first place, which is ALWAYS more that having a slip of paper to sign and a smiley to add to a cache count.

However, when a public invite to a bus tour of unsolved puzzles is posted in these forums and an inquiry about what puzzles someone should start working on is responded to with an open sharing of a huge number of puzzles solves, well that just goes beyond the boundaries of acceptable behavior and it’s what’s pushed me to this point. If neither Groundspeak nor the WGA has the capacity to publicly state that this kind of behavior is unacceptable, then my conviction is to quite the game. So far I’ve not seen any public remonstrance, even though both parties are aware of what has transpired.

I’ll just end this by saying the ball is no longer in my court.

[seldom|seen]

All of us in Puzzleland are feeling the sting of dealing with these tours and our responses to it with mass archival. While my initial thought was to archive them all, it would just have resulted in a many new caches in the area that might not highlight as well as I have the many historical and culturally significant things in the valley represented by my caches.

I just witnessed many of -cheeto-‘s caches get archived as his response to these tours and know full well how much time he invested in creating that Retro Video game series.

Now, many would say we are all being way over-reactive to the way some people choose to play, but those same people have probably not spent the same amount of time researching, crafting and placing puzzles caches as those most affected by these tours. All we are asking for is a little respect for our contributions and if you don’t want to give it, then why offer any opportunities to give it in the first place.

[seldom|seen]

Just want to share with those who care about these things the straw that broke my back.

About the only thing that gave me real satisfaction in this game anymore was creating caches with a purpose beyond finding a stupid container in the woods. Since a recent slew of cache find logs on caches I helped create underscored this premise for some that finding the final is the only purpose behind the sport and the puzzle aspect is something they can take or leave, I decided to call it quits.

This was evidenced by the recent run on the Naturalist series which 14 area cachers helped craft and place in the Purdy preserve. Not a single person in that tour group had the decency or respect to mention the naturalist, the purpose of the series, or even the preserve itself, but instead opted for ALL copy/paste logs – this after the many contentious threads and posts during the past couple months about respecting owner wishes.

Permission was only granted to place the Zeroes to Heroes BECAUSE of its educational content. I would NOT have been given permission to place traditional caches there and that’s why there weren’t any there to begin with. I, and the co-owner of the final, worked long and hard to make the series a reality. To have 4 cachers go through the entire series and not add even a single word outside of their copy/paste logs was a personal insult to me and just underscored the fact that no matter how hard I and others try to get our point across about establishing a baseline for caching ethics, some will never get it. Yes, some things in this sport ARE more important than a smiley.

I have received some pleas to reconsider and may walk back from the precipice, but I have to give it some time. Just looking at all the caches I have and what went into them is making me feel really down about adopting them or archiving them, although the process has already begun.

[Author]

Posts