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@Lostby7 wrote:
There was barely any notice of this event at all. The news hardly even mentioned it. A geocache gets blown up and it’s big news….a real bomb…eh not so much.
My thoughts exactly. A harmless game piece gets mistaken for a bomb and gets 2 minutes in the evening news cycle resulting in the questionable characterization of the sport, while what is reported as a “real bomb” that kids were experimenting with –– dangerous for not only the community but the kids screwing around with amateur bomb-making –– gets little attention in the news. I rest my case.
@zuma wrote:
That doesn’t mean that it was necessarily a bomb either, but bomb squads and emergency service workers have to assume that anything that might be a bomb is a bomb, until proven otherwise.
zuma
And again, agreed. If something “looks” like a pipe bomb, treat it as such. Any geocacher making containers out of metal pipe and end caps should re-consider. However, PVC type containers, while suspicious, do not make for very effective bombs and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a plastic bomb in any news footage that I know of. I could be wrong. I can also understand if someone happens across a PVC tube with caps and jumps to that very reasonable conclusion. This is all sound common sense in my book.
However, I am a little less forgiving of bomb squad personnel that can’t identify a string vs a wick. String is string and det cord is det cord. Ok, so some 8yr old might think that string makes for a good wick, but that’s really stretching it.I do think that some measure should be taken by the BOD, or a sub-committee or an interested party to assemble a “Geocaching” brief that describes the sport in detail, gives information about how to look up caches on the website and describes the most common containers used in the sport. This brief could then be e-mailed in PDF form to all State Police, Fire, DNR, departments and any other entity that might have reason to be well informed. In this way, we are at least showing a willingness to stem the mis-information about the sport and provide these entities with a means to identify suspicious “devices” as such or not in the future.
That, and sticking some kind of label on the cache is a good idea too. Just with the ones that are sold weren’t so expensive…
@gotta run wrote:
I thought there weren’t going to be regular monthly prizes, in lieu of some sort of year end event like this January.
I think the previous month’s winner should be responsible for prize management and fulfillment, which, in this case, would mean gotta run could have given himself a pat on the back 2 months in a row…
@Team Deejay wrote:
which of course is…Gotta Run. He wins a hiking stick made by Team Hemisphere Dancer and donated by Seldom|Seen. I’m assuming he already has it. The prize for March is a Team Lightningbugs coin, donated by me (I think I traded for it.) I understand that Seldom!Seen has procured a valve core removal tools and is now working on removing the valve cores from all the tires on Gotta Run’s vehicles.
Just on of the many “burglary tools” I keep in my kit. Some would say they even double as “deadly weapons” but I wouldn’t know anything about that. As far as passing of the Feb prize, I still have it. Thought I’d hang on to it until I see Mike on the trail so I can beat him with it, somewhere deep in the woods…
@gotta run wrote:
@seldom|seen wrote:
At least I got a couple yesterday.
Dude, why even bother trying? You know we can’t be beaten. There’s absolutely no way. It would be a complete exercise in futility to think that you could possibly catch us this month. Besides, you’d never get clearance to go anyway. So just bask in our awesomeness.
“There is no charge for awesomeness” — Po
Just dropping a note to make sure readers of this thread appreciate the heavy amounts of sarcasm in this prior post, I’d hate for the notion to catch on that gotta_run has this big of a head… I mean it’s large, but not that large! Now where did I put those batteries? I need a lick….
@JimandLinda wrote:
BOOTS? We don’t need no stinkin’ boots!!! 😀
Actually, it was a figure of speech, I don’t own any boots. Just my pair of trusty Keens. I certainly could have used a pair of boots last night though. Went out with the intent of finding the Leather Camp and Twilight Camp caches but the rain was coming down hard and on my first stop in the series I buried those Keens in shin deep slush. On top of that, I couldn’t maintain a signal on my iPhone for anything. No bars! So, with everything working against me I thought, “%(&#) this, I’m going to the bar!” At least I got a couple yesterday.
@gotta run wrote:
The month is not over yet, and history has shown that a week is plenty of time to make up 200+ points… 🙂
got my boots on…
@3 Hawks wrote:
Cause…..A cache was placed. Effect……The cache was blown up and an unfavorable light was shed on geocaching. Although this was not the desired or intended effect, and there were many intermediate factors, the simple fact remains that this specific incident happened and the series of events leading to the final outcome all began when the cache was placed.
What does this have to do with anything? All actions have reactions. Sometimes a cache is placed, visited a hundred times and is never seen my muggles. Other times a cache is placed, is visited once, is seen and subsequently removed. Variables.
None of us are arguing that a reaction happened. None of us are arguing that the root cause was not an unusual container in a place were you wouldn’t naturally find one. These are the givens, are they not? I don’t see anyone arguing Newton’s Third Law of Motion.
It’s been pointed out numerous times what many of us are questioning about the incident and I’m not going to hash them all over again, suffice it to say that I think it has less to do with a question of “blame” and more to do with a question of “justification”.
I think something positive HAS come out of this discussion, and therefor makes it worth the 6 pages in the forums. That local law, fire and park officials need a contact person(s) who can be reached, within reason, whenever questions of this nature arise, to possibly mitigate the “just-doing-our-job” response to these suspicious activity calls.
It’s not a cure-all. It wont wholly prevent caches from being destroyed in the future if other mitigating factors play a role in the decision to remove or destroy a “device”.
BUT, it does say to every official body entrusted with public safety that we, the geocaching community, not only realize the potential exists for out sport, and elements of it, to be misinterpreted but also that we would like to do something about it and will take steps to help prevent such incidents from happening in the future.
Lastly, living in a democracy, it is my right to question authority in whatever for it takes, if it seems like it should be questioned. Just because a group is given the charge to serve and protect does not mean they should never be questioned, nor does it mean that I give them any less credit or respect.
@3 Hawks wrote:
What they call it makes no difference. An unidentified container is a device in the context of the situation. Even if the late Bob Ross had done the story and called it “a happy little container, in the happy little section of woods, hidden in a happy little tree, by happy little people who love everybody and everything and poop rose petals,” that would not change the underlying issue here. Perception IS reality and there is nothing the cache owner could have said aside from “Sorry, and I can see how the cache could have been perceived as something it was not.” I’m not talking about the perception cast on us by the news story. The story did not create the issue. The issue lead to the story. I think we are all familiar with the concept of cause and effect. The public perception cast by the story is the direct consequence of our actions. There is nobody, and I mean nobody, else to blame here but ourselves.
Why does everybody always have to be a victim? Why is everybody always misunderstood? Why is big brother always out to get us? Why is the other person always at fault in the equation?
Who is paranoid in this picture?
An unidentified container is an unidentified container. I just can’t see the leap from a container suspended on a string inside a tree hole to a “device” meant to explode and cause harm to what, a tree?, unless it’s viewed through the eyes of a child. Are we really to assume that the public at large is so daft that they would come to this same conclusion, that a small plastic tube on a string is more than likely a bomb? By that definition, isn’t anything we pick up in the parks in a few weeks at the Appleton CITO suspect if we can’t readily identify it? I guess that’s why we sign waivers, in case my kid’s arm gets blown off when he picks up that plastic bottle. Hey -cheeto- you’d better make sure you have the Bomb Squad on call that weekend, you never know how many small, suspicious devices we’ll uncover in the Appleton parks.
I challenge ANYONE to provide me with a list of REAL bombs that have been found in public parks in Wisconsin. Yes, there have been incidents in the state; bombs in mailboxes, bombs in schools and bombs in dorms or on campuses, but a tiny bomb on a tree in a public park? NEVER.
What I am trying to do here is make a distinction between what is reasonable to assume and what is a lack of understanding or training. It’s a moot point anyway, isn’t it. This cache was not destroyed in the name of public safety, it was destroyed for any other number of reasons that trumped common sense as so many have pointed out.
There are thousands of caches in thousands of parks across this country, many of them without labels and without specific “per cache” permission. All of the caches in Appleton Parks for instance have been given a green light by the P&R director, do you think the police or bomb squad would have the fortitude to contact him on a Sunday morning? Do you think a tagline on the cache page for this cache that said “Permission Granted to Place this Cache” would have prevented it from being destroyed? No, as was stated earlier, the decision was made the minute the bomb squad arrived – lets make some news.
@Firehogs wrote:
I have no problem with anyone venting, however, directing people to the backyard of my house is CROSSING THE LINE.
AGREED. And, if my prior posts seem like personal attacks, you have my apologies and I too need to dial myself back a bit.
@Firehogs wrote:
The Fire Department does not have the authority to stop the bomb squad from following their procedures, even if I was 100% sure this was a cache (I did not see it- I used the Internet to show the squad commander there was one in the vicinity) however, their decision was already made before I got on scene. I can’t change that. They have to follow up on a citizen complaint. Read my prior posts. There are a few people here making assumptions on how we all have to do our jobs.
Thank you everyone for your 2 cents worth, however, learn the facts before going off the deep end over something so minor.
FirehogsFor geocachers who understand what happened and why, there’s a logical progression from initial police contact to picking up the remains of the cache, just as there are a logical number of contributing factors to the decision and reaction of the various departments involved. Saving face, following through on department procedure (the “just-doing-our-job” rationale), breaking out the Bomb Squad equipment to justify expenditures and get some real field time in with the equipment. Certainly, we can argue which of these has more merit than the other, but they all contributed to the demolition of the “device”. And, in and of themselves, I’d tend to agree that the incident is small potatoes and “minor”.
However, on the matter of keeping the “big picture” in mind. It’s the portrayal of the incident and characterization of the sport by the local media outlet that truly bothers me. If you watch the segment as if you are a non-cacher, you come away with the uneasy feeling that there are people placing “devices” in the woods that may or may not be life-threatening. Indeed, even an experienced geocacher who was on the scene could not identify that this was a geocache. The use of words like “scare”, “explosive device” etc. can leave no other impression. I certainly didn’t come away thinking this was a great sport to be involved in, is practiced by hundreds of people in the community and is fun for the whole family, did you? This should concern us all.
Certainly, no one has control over what is edited for a news real and how the topic is framed, but having a Fire Dept Rep who is also a geocacher, suggest that there was some degree of uncertainty tells the community at large that no matter what they find in the woods or who they see hanging around in parks, they’d better call the Police and Bomb Squad to investigate, cause you never know – it could be a bomb or a terrorist. This is the paranoia that I referenced earlier. Instead of making light of the whole situation, the segment put everyone on alert to be watchful. Here’s the opening segue:
“… now back to that story about the “scary” and “costly” morning in Allouez this morning and “all because of” an internet game…”
and the closing few lines:
“This is at least the second time the bomb squad was called in to investigate what was later determined to be a geocaching device, Deneys said.
Several communities have laws in place to regulate the placement of geocaching devices. Some of them include Madison, Milwaukee and Waushara County.”
I can’t think of a single geocaher that would suggest this was a decent and fair portrayal of the sport
@3 Hawks wrote:
Captain,
I’m sorry you’ve had to endure the “wisdom” of some of our more outspoken members. Please remember, the vast majority of cachers understand and appreciate the actions taken by Fire and Police in response to this incident.
Yes, common sense seems to be a thing of the past…..so lets all apply a liberal dose and stop attacking the responsible actions taken by those charged with protecting us from ourselves.
A proactive and responsible response on our part to such an incident goes significantly further toward ensuring we have the continued support of city and municipal authorities. Waving an indignant finger, ranting, and shifting blame makes us all look bad.
While I am a vocal member who contributes “wisdom” to the threads, let it not be said that I don’t “appreciate the actions taken by Fire and Police” to keep us safe. I have a series of caches dedicated specifically to them, for that very reason.
“A proactive and responsible response” BY THE LOCAL NEWS MEDIA would certainly have been appreciated.
That looks suspicious. A tryst behind the bushes or Marc relieving himself. Hmmm… I wonder which?
@cheezehead wrote:
After 9/11 there is so such thing as common sense. Who whould ever thought that I could use my box cutter I use at work to hi-jack an airplane.
Thanks for the paranoia. This is why plastic containers in trees are getting blown up. Dial back the fear factor people. Not every person lingering in a park is a pedophile and not ever plastic container with camo duct tape on it is a bomb. Yes, there is still common sense. And there should have been enough on the day of this event for it to prevail.
What would prevent some crazy person to make some sort of bomb out of an ammo can? And put stickers all over it?
Nothing, and when it happens, this sport with come to an abrupt halt. But in the meantime, that doesn’t mean that we need to treat every cache called “suspicious” like a bomb until proven that it isn’t. Some small measure of common sense, one that says Pipe Bombs are made of metal pipe (shrapnel), typically have a detonation cap and a wire to transmit a charge from a trigger source, and are placed in places where they might significantly damage people or property. None of these applied in this case. Seriously when was the last time ANY bomb squad has found a homemade pipe bomb with a “wick” in Wisconsin?
Look at the big picture people. We all play a game that others think is stupid. It really wouldn’t take much of incident for someone to say that’s it, no more. All those involved were doing there jobs. Plain and simple. If you were in their shoes, how would you react?
I would have said, “hey guys, this is obviously a geocache, go home”, particularly if I had 200 solves under my belt. Let me be clear, if I got called on a real chunk of pipe with a wire or det cord sticking out of it placed under a bench downtown, then yes I would have done exactly what they did. And, I will admit that of the 800+ caches that I’ve found, maybe a half dozen could be labeled “suspicious” and would warrant this call to public safety, but I think the driving force here is that once a Bomb Squad is called to any scene, there’s a good chance something will get blown up to justify the need for a bomb squad in the first place. Enter geocaching.
Here are my questions to Firehog:
How many REAL bombs has the bomb squad detonated since 2000?
How many homemade bombs have been found in Alluez?
How many times has the bomb squad been called to investigate a suspicious container and gone home without destroying that container?
How many detonations of geocaches have there been since 2000 and how many detonations of non-geocaches have there been in Wisconsin?@-cheeto- wrote:
We can discuss politics, labeling containers, post 9/11 hysteria, common sense, & what a bomb looks like til were blue in the face but what should be taken away from this is getting permission will help prevent incidents like this. The future of this hobby is in building great relationships with our local land managers. The last thing we want is for a village like Allouez to respond to an incident like this with a geocaching policy with the words ban or not allowed in it.
-cheeto-
Permission or not, caches will continue to be subject to over-reaction. If you recall the last “suspicious” container blown up WAS placed with permission, permission from a Fire Chief if I recall correctly, and when that person happened to be unavailable that day, the container was subsequently blown up. No amount of “proper labeling”, “permission granting” or indeed “common sense” will prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t do all these things, perhaps it will help in some small measure. The OBVIOUS challenge here, and what should be a future course of action of the BOD, is to EDUCATE Bomb Squads, Fire Departments and Police Departments about the sport by showing them the website – the magnitude and location of cache placements, a sampling of typical containers and providing them ALL with a number of CONTACT numbers for Wisconsin Reviewers who can immediately identify and verify where a cache is supposed to be placed and what it is supposed to look like.
That WILL go a long way to prevent these incidents from occurring.@Firehogs wrote:
1. the container had a string attached to it to pull it out of the tree (looked like a wick perhaps?)
Are you serious? A string that suspended a cache mistaken for a wick? I assume the bomb squad is educated enough to tell what det cord and homemade “wicks” look like. If not, maybe you need to spend some money on educating your people. Secondly, since the year 2000, how many REAL bombs have you guys detonated and did any of them look anything like something a geocacher might place? If every one of my caches of the described size of this cache, without an EXPENSIVE GC.com label, were put under the same illogical assemsement by your Bomb Squad, you’d suddenly have 200 more “bombs” to blow up. I agree 100% percent with gotta_run on this one, the Squad and you, an active geocacher, should have come to the obvious conclusion that this was a cache. It was in the woods, in a tree hole, suspended by a string, had a corresponding location on the website – what more could could possibly need?
And, if you’re telling me it’s for safety because you couldn’t be 100% certain, shouldn’t you, the person in charge, be blowing up every cache you find that isn’t clearly labeled and “looks” like a bomb for you own safety? Can YOU ever be any more than 75% certain that something you find isn’t a bomb, even if it has a sticker on it?
@Firehogs wrote:
I educated the Sheriff Dept, Bomb Squad, Media & fellow cachers the best I could so maybe this could be avoided in the future.
So what happens the next time you get called out to a container that “looks like” a bomb and isn’t labeled “geocache”? Are you going to feel 100% certain it is. I dread the day the first real terrorist plants an ammo can full of explosives in an urban area with a “geocache” label on it. GAME OVER.
@Trekkin’ and Birdin’ wrote:
You know, I actually read that prior message, too. Maybe I’d better celebrate my OWN landmark birthdays while I can still remember I have them!
Not to worry, I’m having the same memory issues myself! Sure will be nice to get out and clean the cobwebs from our collective minds!
@seldom|seen wrote:
About a week before the event, I will post a complete list of all the S|S caches that are in these 3 parks. I don’t think either of us are interested in placing temp or new perms, although there are a couple spots left (believe it or not). I know of 2 caches that I can place for FTF opportunities, but that’s probably the extent of anything we can put out for the event.
I’ll get a list together and posted to the cache listing a month beforehand. Of course, you could always attend the CITO in Wausau, I hear there giving away clues to mine…
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