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Once the new BOD is sworn in, and committee assignments made, I would like to volunteer to be part of the 2009 Picnic Planning Committee or whatever you guys decide to call it.
I am VERY interested in talking to High Cliff personal and developing an early strategy to place Temps and Perms in that wonderful park. I considered doing this earlier, myself, but think that it is a much better idea to do this in a wholly coordinated and WGA-certified manner.
Please contact me via PM when decisions have been made.
@Sagasu wrote:
Seldom|seen wrote:
I don’t do much caching lately but I am going to try to keep a closer eye on TB’s and GC’s coming into the area this year.
You mean you are actually going to visit some caches that aren’t lonely? Won’t that mess with your statistics of having over one hide for every five finds? And if you slow down on finding those lonelys your percentage of lonely finds to finds will drop below that 24% you stand at.. lol
No wonder I failed statistics in college, I hate em!!!! Where do you come up with these numbers, and more importantly, WHY?
@Sagasu wrote:
I tried to ask one of the “creators” about the event and got no reply at all – not even a disclaimer, so I was even more curious. So, it turns out it was cancelled after all? Too bad, I’m sure that group could have taken us to some places we have never gone before…..
“Bring on the court jester!”
(the king bellows while shaking his head at the antics of his court and dignitaries from neighboring kingdoms)
@-cheeto- wrote:
I simply don’t beleive in putting out caches for the sole purpose of watching people struggle. Some may think that is the case “in the puzzle business” but not with this owner.
This is the fundamental difference between some puzzle creators and others. I too, do not create puzzles to drive cachers crazy. Some of you may disagree because you have been driven crazy, but know that is it not the purpose of my caches.
I’ll admit that some of the puzzle ideas that come to me can be cryptic, examples would be “My Left Ear is Right”, “FIN is for Finish” or “Hyde’s Web” where the logic and means of solving the puzzle is not readily apparent. I do try to sprinkle in enough clues to get you moving in the right direction. I also tend to revisit them after the FTF and add a clue or two, just as many puzzle cache creators do.
But beyond the puzzle itself, I am trying to show you something new or present information about a topic you might know little about. I found the number of country abbreviations (and associated numerical UN codes) fascinating and wanted to share that in the form of a puzzle – “FIN is for Finish”; I thought the “Deutch Effect” was very cool and wanted everyone else to experience that interesting audio phenomenon – “My Left Ear is Right” (use your balance knob); I wanted to introduce cachers to aspects of Aerial photography where man-made objects resemble other things (like a web) that most of us just glance over – “Hyde’s Web” and other Nadar caches. For none of these caches did I even begin with the premise “how difficult can I make this puzzle” and “how long will it take for someone to solve it”. In fact, I usually find myself struggling with how difficult they might be and trying to find ways to make them a bit more accessible without taking all the fun out of solving them.
MY INTENT IS NEVER TO CREATE A PUZZLE THAT IS SO CRYPTIC that it can’t be solved without asking me directly for help. I actually get uncomfortable with a puzzle that goes unsolved for more than a day or two because it tells me I may have made it too difficult. This is also the reason why I feel like getting to the solve without inventing time into solving it, time that leads to discovery, short-changes you on what the owner’s intent of the puzzle was and you miss out.
@marc_54140 wrote:
There are no rules in caching that defines how and when puzzles caches are found. There are no rights, no wrongs. Therefore, no one is in the right, no one is in the wrong.
It’s all a difference of interpretation. Everyone gets to choose how they go about it all. No one has to apologize for what they do!
Agreed. Jumping over a fence to quickly get to a cache that would otherwise require a 1/4 mile walk is still certainly an adventure and not what the owner intended.
Doing a search and destroy on a 6-part multi that took 20 plus hours to create and anther 10 hours and 4 trips to place and then logging the find without doing any of the stages is still a find after all.
I’m not expecting any apologies, in fact I just gave you one for coming to the wrong conclusion on your recent find of one of mine.
I’m not asking you for an apology or to play the game any differently than you do.
I AM asking you not to promote cache tours on my puzzles caches where the practice of logging puzzles without solving them is promoted. If someone asks you for help, fine, give them a nudge. That’s different that saying “hey, I know where the final is on the 10-stage multi if you want to log it”. You can do what you want, I’m just making it clear that this owner/creator would LIKE you to solve his puzzles before you log them – pretty sure everyone gets that now. AND make it clear that I don’t want my puzzles found by every cacher in the valley because they are out there, but found by those who appreciate what I put into them. I don’t care if some of mine are only found by one or two players a year. If you find my puzzles pesky nuisances, just put them on your ignore list and forget about them.
I can’t change the way anybody plays the game, nor can I fault anyone for playing the way they do. I can ask for a little consideration, however, for the intent of the puzzle and the creator. I know that I am not alone in this regard.
You are right, there are no rights and wrongs, just owner expectations that the effort they put into creating caches is awarded to those who make the find the way the owner intended. In the end everyone lives with their finds and the knowledge of how they got them. We’re all going to be let down on occasion, no matter what kind of caches we place. I know, it happens to me all the time.
Now, to start surfing for some cemetery pictures…
oopss missed that. Yes, I’m set that as Feb’s prize. can i edit my initial post and can someone make this sticky?
@marc_54140 wrote:
I place caches to be found. How they are found does not concern me.
If you really want each finder to solve your puzzles, then you need to add a requirement to the cache page that asks for a sworn, notarized statement that the logger did solve the puzzle. (Lots of sarcasm here. I will notarize anyone’s statement ……..!)
It really is All About the Numbers man! I want to clear them off my radar screen.
There is a fundamental difference between the way you, and others in the numbers camp, view the sport and the way I, and others in the solve it camp, that will always be at odds with each other.
You and I are probably at the far ends of the spectrum on this issue and I’d venture to guess most others fall somewhere in between.
On my end of the spectrum, we are not concerned about getting ALL the caches in our neighborhood, are not concerned about our rankings and stats, and are content to leave puzzles that we find difficult to solve, remain unsolved and un-found because we feel we are cheating the puzzle creators if we short-cut the process to get there. You’ll notice that those who’ve come to my defense are avid puzzle creators and share many of the feelings I have about puzzle tours.
On your end of the spectrum are cachers that ARE concerned about the numbers and about stats and do want to clear your screen of those pesky ?’s. You view them as an annoyance rather than a challenge. Of course, you yourself, are a bit of an anomaly since you are also a puzzle creator and do create puzzles that you want others to gain insight and experience from. Your cemetery monument series is a great example. Would you not feel inclined to delete a log if you found out that a cacher logged a bunch of your “post a picture of this type of monument” by culling pics from the internet? Apparently not.
I suspect that cachers on your end of the spectrum have been around a long time, long before puzzles became so prolific, long before players like me and -cheeto- and gotta run got into it, and are just used to playing the game a certain way. I suspect as well that many of us in the puzzle creation category have not been around for that long, and have an entirely different appreciation of how to play the game. We do not have really high numbers, we are not watching the High Pobah stats or checking or find per day ratios.
I can’t expect you to play the game differently, and certainly if you spend time on one of my frustrating puzzles and aren’t getting anywhere, I would expect you to ask for help, either from me (which you often do) or from someone else, just as I expect many others to do.
My point of contention is not with the way that you, specifically you, get your number or find your caches. While I think you are cheating yourself at times, I can’t fault you for playing the way you want to play – to each their own. What I do have a problem with is the “common knowledge” that “Marc shares puzzle solves, (though rarely your own) and moreover the common knowledge that you can go with Marc on a tour and clear out some puzzles without having solved them, OR EVEN ATTEMPTED to solve them, and it’s no skin off anyone’s nose.
Why? Not just because I feel a little cheated, which I do because I invest a great deal of time into them so cachers get something out of them, but more importantly because those of us who have invested a lot of time to solve puzzles on our own merit, feel cheated when someone else posts a copy/paste log on a puzzle we have 20+ hours into trying to solve, and they get it without even looking at the cache listing.
I can’t change the way people play, but thankfully I think that 99% of the players out there DO want to have solved puzzles before finding them, or at least have made significant progress or know how to solve them, before logging a find. Nor can I fault anyone for wanting to go on a tour as there is an element of excitement and fun in caching in a group, probably the reason you like to do it so much.
All I can do is ask you, and those in your camp, to ignore my puzzles if you do not intend to solve them. As has been said, there’s plenty more out there to find. That way you will not be enticing others to log finds on puzzles they haven’t solved.
I won’t get into the differences between solving some of your “read-my-mind” cryptic puzzles and my “follow the logic” puzzles, as that was covered and I do think there is one, suffice it to say that I think you look at puzzles differently than I do as well.
I put them out for many reasons, to entertain, to educate, to reflect and to experience. I DO NOT PUT THEM OUT just to be found.
@Team Black-Cat wrote:
Like Marc said, at least they get to enjoy part of the trip.
OK. But what did you enjoy about logging a puzzle that you didn’t solve. I don’t understand. If it was just to get a number, aren’t there tons of other caches in the valley you could have visited instead? Wouldn’t a tour of traditionals or multi’s have been just as rewarding?
@marc_54140 wrote:
And others I can not figure out at all.
Then why not just leave those ones unfound? I guess that’s what I don’t understand about some players. A puzzle creator does not create a complex puzzle so others can simply ask someone else who spent umpteen hours solving it for the solution. YOU of all people, Marc, should understand this.
I have no problem asking for help when I need it. I will continue this behavior.
Asking for help is fine. Asking for a clue on how to solve a puzzle is fine too. Asking for the final location because you can’t see the clue needed to solve the puzzle is, IMHO, not the same thing.
Ultimately, each cacher has to decide for him or herself if finding the cache or solving the puzzle, or both, is what he or she feels is necessary when logging a find. For me, a find is a find. And that is, after all, the standard definition of finding a cache – find the container.
If a cache owner wants to be picky, and stick in some meaningless requirements, go ahead.
Wow. So what you are saying is that it doesn’t matter to you what the puzzle is or what the intent of the puzzle creator is, it doesn’t really matter as long as you can log the final and get it off your nearest to home list. Way to show your true colors.
You have some great hides, containers, etc. Do you not want a lot of cachers to find them, and enjoy them?
NO, I would much rather have 5 cachers put in the time to solve a cache and work for the find than have 35 cachers get it by touring. Those 5 solvers will remember what they went through to get the find and will likely remember the content to the listing while the 35 cachers will forget what the cache was about soon after they publish their hollow “find it while out touring the valley” logs.
Since most of your best hides are puzzles, a vast percentage of cachers will never solve them. Even veteran puzzle solvers can be stumped by the twisted logic you use in them.
I guess I’ll take a look at my Ignore List again ……
Man, wouldn’t that be sweet, to have all of mine on Marc’s ignore list. I couldn’t ask for anything more!
I think its’ time to give our German friends an opportunity to log a bone fide Wisconsin find and vice versa…
Keep your eyes peeled for a new s|s globetrotter….
These are all brit Sci-Fi, though it would be hard to link many of them to Space Oddities. Anyway, thought I’d post it. Did anyone take Fururama or Blakes 7 yet? I can’t seem to pull up the series with a titles search using “SO:” for some reason…
The Avengers
50 episodes (1965-67) 60mThe Prisoner
17 episodes (1967-68) 60mThe Champions
30 episodes (1968-69) 60mUFO
26 episodes (1970-71) 60mDoomwatch
38 episodes (1970-72) 60mSpace 1999
48 episodes (1975-77) 60mSurvivors
38 episodes (1975-77) 60mBlake’s 7
52 episodes (1978-81) 60mThanks to all of you for making the trek despite the iffy weather. The turnout was overwhelming and bodes well for the LCG and the continued involvement of Wisconsin’s gregarious cachers.
I am only remiss that the location and the crowd didn’t facilitate a little group reflection time on the most memorable moments for the 2008 LCG. But we’ve filled that void already with a new thread thanks to JimandLinda.
I was utterly surprised to see so many trackables logged into the cache just prior to the weekend. The last time I had looked at the page there were a couple dozen and suddenly there were more than 80! That mushroomed into a total of 166 trackables at the event, a huge number considering this gathering was not billed as a geocoin related swap meet.
It was great to see so many faces and talk to many of you whom I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting before. I am sure that this will become an annual event and will be as successful every year hence. The middle of winter has us all feeling a little coup’d up and ready to get out for a little camaraderie. What better way to shrug off the cold than to bowl a couple frames and log a few trackables?
@labrat_wr wrote:
I’m guessing that we wouldn’t complain, would we ????
As long as none of us intend to get loud and way drunk or bring a hand-gun along. I was there 4 years ago for a family reunion and some peripheral friends. One of the peripherals was from Milwaukee and didn’t think he needed to kept his sidearm at home.
During the day, we noticed 2 quarter-barrels being unloaded at the next family site over. Apparently, there was going to be a bachelor party next door that night. Hmmm… park managers…. do you not think that 20, loud, drunken, college-age men are going to raise a little hell until the wee hours? Might you not have found a more secluded place for them?
So, about 1 o’clock in the morning, as the level of rowdiness grew and the noise became unbearable for the dozen or so under thirteens we had in our camp, and after repeated attempts to ask nicely to tone it down for the little ones, the armed visitor among us finally had enough ( I think an insult was hurled at his wife if I remember correctly) and decided to confront the obnoxious (and quite vulgar) group, telling them to shut the – up or he was going to call the rangers. That didn’t go over well, the shouting esscallated, and the aforementioned handgun was drawn and pulled on the most vocal of the young drunks. As you can imagine, all hell broke loose.
Tons of commotion, police cars, (no arrests thankfully) and a whole lotta pissed off campers who didn’t get much sleep that night. So, leave your handguns at home and your attitudes at the park gates.
@GrouseTales wrote:
I see almost a dozen caches in the park, or in very close proximity.
With over 10,000 caches in the State, it’s hard to imagine there is a shortage in the area. It seems to me that if someone has found all the caches in N/E WI, they would make a good host to help organize and hide temps 😀
I’m gonna have to agree with GrousTales on this one. High Cliff gets plenty of action through-out summer and is not hurting for visitation.
The permanent caches were pulled out of High Cliff for a reason a few years back, unfortunately I wasn’t into the sport at the time and can’t speak to the circumstances, but I suspect it had to do with the dangerous terrain along the cliff faces or trampling in sensitive or protected areas, of which there are a few up there.
More than any parks I’ve been to in Wisconsin, this one has more potential to become an “incident” involving “geocachers” since someone could hurt themselves quite seriously hunting for a high terrain cache along the bluffs.
That’s not to say that High Cliff can’t support more caches. It certainly can and has. It is to suggest some caution about the cache placements and making sure the park personnel are well aware and prepared for what may come.
I have been eager to place a few out there myself. I have one Earthcache worked up and 2 hiking caches in mind for The Seldom Seeker and the Seeker Jr. which I hope to get placed as soon as the snow melts. However, I do think that working with the park rangers and getting permission to place temps is a lot easier to accomplish than suggesting to them that a bunch of geocachers are going to be placing 40 permanent caches this spring – that might actually push them in the opposite direction.
I WOULD STRONGLY ENCOURAGE MEMBERS OF THE BOD to meet with the High Cliff staff and managers to have a frank discussion of what has happened in the past, what level of comfort they have with caches placed along the cliff face trails, and what they would deem appropriate for an event of this magnitude, for both temp and perm caches.
I WOULD ALSO STRONGLY SUGGEST reserving the central campfire ring to the right of the first fork when you get to the top of the first stretch of road. That would be an ideal central meeting place and staging ground for the event although there are the group campsites with fire-pits.
(cripes, I sound like I’m running for the BOD) I would be willing to be one of the envoy that meets with them. I live close by and visit that park frequently.
@JimandLinda wrote:
What was your favorite Lonely Cache?
What was your most challenging?
What was the nastiest container you found?
What was the dumbest thing you did or attempted?Let me see if I can pull this out of my brainbox. As so of you know most of my LCG caching was done in the dark so I was not always rewarded with the views you referred to above (although I had a cache placed higher than than the KVR-HILO spot you referenced but couldn’t get it activated because of the proximity of one of its waypoints) so the things I remember are the unique challenges I faced at night, sometimes with no sleep for the previous 36-40 hours.
What was your favorite Lonely Cache? GCB00F – SMOKEY-BEAR PINES
THE BEST LONELY CACHE FIND OF THE WEEKEND, and there were a lot of great ones.
This is the epitome of what a good geocache is about, for me. To take you to a special place that you would never have seen were it not for the cache.
After a good warm-up on Friday getting a handful of lonely caches it was time to burn the midnight oil and get a few more before dawn when I had to get back to camp to prep for a full day of fishing.
This was my second stop and the timing was just right. Absolutely clear midnight sky, a cool 60-some degrees, slight breeze and I was taken to this place to visit a wise old elder. He invited me to slow down a bit and listen to a few stories (Ents are slow talkers) and so I did. I signed the cache, turned off my headlamp and sat there, listening, and looking at the stars.
Then the thoughts came rolling in. What am I doing way up here in the Northwoods at midnight looking for an ammo box? Seems like such a waste of time and fuel for such a silly premise. And that’s what it would be if it were not for caches such as these. I thanked the elder for his time, his stories of trappers and traders and wished him well in his uncertain future and went on my way.
THANKS AGAIN for the opportunity to share a few moments with the old dude!
What was your most challenging? GCKJ6W Lookout Above II | Last One Standing (formerly Fire, Water, & Earth)
Without a doubt the longest single-most challenging cache of the year. Revisits, long hikes, water-crossing to nettle infested island, etc.
Where to start! Well, fourth trip to the tower and this time, the WP was finally there for me to find! On to WP2. Wow, it’s that far away?
Got to within a half mile of WP2 and had to go by foot from there. When my son and I got to GZ, we were happy to discover that we could walk across the second part of the name to GZ, albiet with some slow and deliberate foot placement. Got to GZ and hunted for what seemed an eternity. The place was flush with varies species of Nettle and they all stung! After I reached my pain threshold, I looked for another ten minutes and gave up (my son was already back in the water waiting for me). As I had been given permission to replace it if I came up short, I placed a new WP2 with cords to the final. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the container I intended to place and had to make due with something else I had along which should be fine for the rest of the summer.
On to the Final. Wow, is it that far away, again! Sheesh, now I see why this truly is a 4/4. Got as close as I could to GZ and left the son in the car to recover from WP2. Took quite a while. but in the end I found the final which was in terrific shape. I really wanted to drop a new TB of mine in here for the next lonely finder, but that was also in my back of tricks that didn’t make it along. For some reason, I did have another personal trackable in my pocket, so I left that in here instead!
A great cache and well deserving of its rating. I have a feeling this will not be my last visit… and also the most memorable. WP1 will be going back up to the top of the tower this year 🙂
What was the nastiest container you found? GCE9A4 Westlund Cache
This cache was utterly shot and is in serious need of repair. There was no lid and it appeared as if the contents had been rotting away for a very long time. Emptied the container but couldn’t sign anything.
Now typically I’m prepared to replace suspect caches, as I was this time. But I knew the owners were derelict in keeping up with the cache and responding to the many “needs help” hits on the listing, so I decided this one would be better left to rot in infamy than meet a similar fate down the road if I replaced it. Sure enough, it’s been archived and is now a Rescue Mission listing.
What was the dumbest thing you did or attempted? GCVNH5 Beefies – The Simmental
What a mother… took the most direct route and got hung up in some of the most series vegetation of the series. Actually had to cross over water as I somehow ended up on the wrong side. Boy was I glad to get this one. bay far the toughest of the series.
There really more to this, but I had to let my temper cool and log it days later. I had to cross the river twice for this one and I don’t have hip boots or anything of the kind. That meant going bare-legged through frigid knee-deep water (Nov). After 4 crossings, I was sure hypothermia was going to set in and I wasn’t going to make it back to the car. It felt a little like my swim to and from Cram Island – you can ask Dave how spent I was from that adventure and how near death that find was. This one was on par with a similar sense of “oh hell, this time I’ve really done it” welling up inside.
I was one hell-of-a-year and one NOT to be repeated. I am happy to be watching from the dug-out this year, though I will certainly come out for a swing or two somewhere along the way, weather, time and gas-money permitting.
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