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@gotta run wrote:

@seldom|seen wrote:

Well, today is the last day of the year and I know a few players are anxiously awaiting the first list of 09. Many of us are still curious about the new rules, if any, and might like to see them before we head out the door tomorrow….

They’re coming with the logo announcement.

Such a smart^$*^*)! Don’t get me started on the logo… but do give Deejay the benefit of the doubt – he’s been busy working on new puzzle caches 😉

I do hope we see the rule changes today. Not that I intend to play very hard this year or anything.

[seldom|seen]

Well, today is the last day of the year and I know a few players are anxiously awaiting the first list of 09. Many of us are still curious about the new rules, if any, and might like to see them before we head out the door tomorrow….

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@gotta run wrote:

So many events in January, so little time…

guess everyone’s tired of pizza…

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Just bringing this thread to the surface again as the event draws near. Hopefully boredom and snow-sickness has infected more of you and this cure is beginning to have more appeal!

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@marc_54140 wrote:

A notice to all foreigners:

The Kingdom of Selzzup has posted guards along ALL of it’s border, to keep foreigners out. There has been a considerable amount of FTFing by these fly-by-night foreigners, that has the local population up in arms.

Until further notice …………

He sure did.

I chastised him once for it, but the Bishop is bound by a higher sense of authority that which comes from the king. I am not one to enforce border-crossing quotas and actually welcome visitors from other lands, even for FTF’s.

On another note.

Man, if I felt bound by “rules” I wouldn’t get much playing in. Most parks are closed when I get to go out. I take my chances and have had my share of encounters, one of which resulted in… well, lets just say I was uncomfortable for 15 minutes, and it wasn’t in a park but on a public street.

Most officers are only interested in keeping the drug-traffiking and underage-drinking out of the parks and are quite understanding when they come across late-night cachers. Moreover, they are appreciative when
I report suspicious activity or find contraband when I am caching, something I’ve also done on a number of occasions, and know that I do more good than harm when I do cross the time-line.

Now, I know this is going to spark a whole new discussion about how we are supposed to abide by local park rules or we risk giving “geocaching” a bad name. I can understand and appreciate that. In the end, all the caches I place and actions I take come down to being my own responsibility. If I fall out of a tree going after a 5 terrain and break my arm, it’s on me. If I get a citation for being in a park after hours, well, that’s on me too. End of story.

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Being a bit handicapped by my MAC office and infrastructure, I am limited to all things NOT microsoft. That means no GSAK, ExpertGPS or any number of other powerful and well developed software.

Instead I get to use Terrabrowser for aerial mapping and Meander for distance measurements. Man, would I love a proximity circle function!!!!

If only I had an Intel based MAC, I could install Parallels and run Vista programs on it. Unfortunately, I don’t and Virtual PC costs a boatload, so I haven’t even tried.

Might have to invest in a new Mac in 09…. might being the key word.

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@JimandLinda wrote:

The other issue on “replacement” is the situation that presents itself at the cache site. Sometimes a cache is “missing” and needs replacement (or not!). Other times, a damaged cache is present but needs replacement, such as cracked film canister, no lid, broken lid, no longer waterproof, moldy interior. Sometimes GZ has been compromised and is no longer there, such as a tree that was cut down, brush removal, even road construction.
If a LCG player is 150 miles from home, and can’t instantly contact the owner, the player makes a judgment call. Sometimes right and sometimes wrong. Getting a questionable cache fixed is the issue, and I believe, when in doubt, it should go to “Cache Rescue” rather than be replaced.

Yup, and sometimes GZ is a sandbar where any previous cache location has washed downstream. This is the point I was trying to make with the “leeway” comment. Anytime you are doing anything with someone else’s cache, no matter how valid the intent, the potential exists for the new cache to be dissimilar from the original. However, only on rare occasions has this been an issue this past year even when the owners are unresponsive or unaware of the maintenance on their caches. So, play with the right intent and perspective and if something does go haywire or an owner gets upset about it, at least you have a solid rationale to present in your defense.

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@Team Deejay wrote:

1. Elimination of “minor maintenance” points. – I think this is a good idea. I will probably put in some sort of verbiage that as an LCG player, you are expected to replace bags, magnets, velcro, logs, etc, as needed. This is just being a part of the community and making things better for all.

2. Formalizing the cache replacement policy – We should require that any replacement be made only with explicit permission from the cache owner. I don’t think it is necessary to eliminate replacement entirely, but the cache owner needs to at least be agreeable. If the owner won’t respond to email prior to your visit, just report it as missing and it will eventually fall into the black hole and be archived.

3. Cache Rescue – How about a flat 15 points for cache rescues? For those not in the loop, the problem with getting cache rescues into the list is that the program grabbing the cache info (terrain/difficulty) is not logged into gc.com, and thus doesn’t have access to archived caches. Today, I have to unarchive each cache, and then add it to the list manually, and then rearchive each cache, which is a bit of a pain to say the least. I suspect that more than one owner of these caches is curious about what I am doing, but so far, none of them have bothered to ask me. Maybe Jeremy can come up with a better system.

4. Going to a 2 month competition (versus a monthly competition) – I’m not sure this is such a great idea. We already have enough issues with people getting a bunch of logs at the beginning of the month and discouraging everyone else.

5. Divisions – I can see two approaches to this.
5A. By total finds at the start of the year – Say that “Amateur” is less than 1000 finds? If we did this, I would ask participants to indicate this status in their site profile.

5B. By geography – We could theoretically quarter the state. The theoretical geocache center of the state is around N44 W89 which is around 12 miles due west of Oshkosh. That said, I don’t have a good feeling for what we would do with these divisions, plus I don’t know that I can come up with that many prizes anyway. Maybe an annual award for the best finish in each quadrant.

Again, post your comments and ideas here.

1. Agreed.

2. So the only change here is to state that you must get permission to replace a cache. There will still be instances of multiple replacements but I guess I agree that this is probably best left to cache owners to manage. If they give permission to 3 players then it’s on them if 3 replacement caches appear where there was once one. I still think it would be nice if there was some kind of formal notification to Lonely Cache owners to give them a “heads up”. Many of them never realize their caches are on the list until some point of contention arises and at that point the game has already left a “bad impression” on that cache owner. (see comment further down)

3. Cache Rescue Missions: This tool available to all WGA members should be utilized more often. It is not there just to function as a cache clean-up device but can go a long way in maintaining troubled caches. I hope that with greater emphasis in the game, the Missions will get more attention and cachers will start using the “other” mission types. Seriously, if you see a post on your cache that says “cache was open and need help or log was soaked and needs to be replaced” by all means, submit a rescue mission and get it taken care of if you can’t get to it in a couple weeks. I for one am going to post a few missions of my own this week. 15 points is a lot better than the 2 points I was getting – 10 points would be plenty. And yes, if there was a better way to manage the archived ones it would be better for you, but I don’t see a way around it.

4. Not a good idea. Leave it monthly. More opportunities to win.

5. I’d definitely be in favor of 5A. The total number of finds is pretty indicative of how gregarious cachers are. Something like 0-500, 501-1000, 1000-3000, 3000+, whatever the averages work out to based on game involvement this year. This should be enough incentive to get some newer players into the game with opportunity to at the top of their bracket the end of the year. I think this should only apply to the yearly totals based on the variable distribution of Lonelies. As some of us have said before, there were plenty of months where the distribution favored areas of the state where cachers were not as active in the game as the Valley crew (and Zuma).

6. You missed No.6. What about the progressive incentive to get lonelier caches? I think this idea has merit. 8mo = score x2, 12mo = score x3, 16mo = score x4, 20mo+ = score x5. I’d use whole multiples instead of fractions which would require rounding. There aren’t many that fall into the last 2 catagories anyway, but man, if I saw a lonely with a x5 score I’d sure give it a shot! Are there any even out there that haven’t been found in a year and a half?

Lastly, This game does rely on the honesty and integrity of its players. The scoring and reporting will never be 100% black and white, but any effort to reduce the amount of gray area will ceratinly help. I’ve set replacement caches when I was on the phone with the owner and given full permission to do so, verifying it MIA while taking with the owner, only to have it appear again a week later. You just can’t rule out all the variables here and have to allow some leeway, just as you have this year Dave, for instances where the reports and replacements are not black and white.

A great example is “The Flashlight”. A previous finder did a revisit. This finder knew exactly where the original was, confirmed it missing and set a replacement. I went out to find the replacement, a cache I hadn’t hunted before, and instead found the original in a few minutes. On top of that, I couldn’t find the replacement cache to pull it from the field. So, now there is a cache with an original container and new log sheet as well as a replacement container and log sheet. And this was all done to the best of the players ability and knowledge in as close to black and white circumstances as you can get. Of all the replacements I’ve placed, there are an equal number of permission-granted’s and no-permission-granted’s that have come back and bite me, so getting permission will not in-and-of-itself strip the multiple replacement variable form the game. Leeway and discretion are needed.

I think that about covers it. Looking forward to spending more time on the sidelines next year and watching others get out there and go after these challenging caches. Thanks Deejay, for all the hard work an effort you have put into this game! It has only been a success because of that effort! I’ll play be any rules you establish and even use them to my advantage 😉 😈

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@gotta run wrote:

Congratulations!

The 4S caches are on the “winter list” of ours and another 5-star crazed cacher here, and the benefit of these is that at least we don’t need an ice drill.

However, even though these two are “available in winter,” it looks like that availability lessens considerably with every inch of snow…correct??? 😯

The SSSS’s. Yes, no matter how cold and frozen the waterway the ice in the marsh will be rotten and the potential is always there to break through. ALL of us who have ventured out in frozen conditions have found ourselves ankle, waist and even chest high in frigid and smelly swamp water.

Best advice is a pair of waders, no matter what season. Winter does afford you the opportunity to get closer to these caches with fewer incidents than does summer. That’s not to say it’s a breeze as they range in treachery depending on approach and luck. Both will be snow covered and both may be difficult to spot under large amounts of snow – but I think they are both findable with less than a foot of accumulation. I would also STRONGLY suggest not going after either of them SOLO. And, be sure to have a full charge on your cell phone just in case you need to call the Medivac.

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From the submit mission page, Cache Rescue:

Rescue Mission Type
Select the type of rescue mission that best fits the situation from the descriptions to the right

Verify Removed – Verify that the cache is no longer present. If the cache or any part of it is there, remove it.

Verify Present – Verify that the cache is present. If possible or necessary, perform maintenance to allow the cache to be active again. Report back on the status of the cache.

Maintenance Request – Request that some type of maintenance (log book replacement, container repair, etc.) be performed on the cache. Please indicate in notes section below exactly what type of maintenance work the rescuer should perform.

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Well well, amazing how a thread can take hold after being dormant for weeks. Just parted ways with the 1st place LCG player who stopped by after work – yes, at 1am, and chatted for a couple hours discussing, in part, this thread and the LCG as well as the recent challenges to the November results.

Sagasu suggested I catch up to this thread as a ton has been said in the past two days. He was right. I think Dave (Deejay) has put everything in clear perspective with his last post. But a few more thoughts and reiterations.

1. The game has been and continues to be successful and has (with the exception of a handful of caches) resulted in improvements or archives of lonely caches as well as increased visitation to difficult to reach or solve caches. All of this is good, and despite the few headbutts, it’s been a boatload of fun for anyone involved.

2. There is ample opportunity for anyone to win, although time and travel limitations could certainly warrant a Class award system at the end of the year for all players.

3. The top 4 players this year know each other well. In part, the high scores are a direct result of those relationships. This is particularity true of Sagasu and I but also true of Zuma and Pete. This kind of thing will happen again, but I don’t think it will come from any of us next year nor do I think the point spread will be as wide. The game was new and novel. It wont be next year.

4. There are a few elements of contention that I hope can be minimized. They’ve both been touched on. The maintenance points it sounds like everyone agrees, don’t need to be part of the game.

The other is cache replacements. I see two scenarios.

1. I still think that when the list goes out an e-mail could be sent to every cache owner alerting them to the fact that their cache is on the list. There should be a feedback link in that e-mail that says “click here if you approve your cache for replacement”. All of Deejay’s comments still apply. Unresponsive owners will not supply approval and therefore their poorly maintained caches will not be replaced and be diverted into the archive stream. Responsive owners will know that they have to either A – go check on their cache and fix it themselves, B – allow it to be replaced and be content with the replacement, or C – not respond and have their cache diverted into the archive stream.

I agree, a fair number of the caches on the list this year should probably not have gotten replaced. But it is difficult to walk away from an opportunity when it’s a good location, the cache is missing and you have a suitable replacement. Why not keep a good cache alive? But…

2. It is the OWNER’s responsibility to maintain their caches. If they can’t get to a cache that might be in trouble, they should really submit a Cache Rescue Mission with specific instructions on what to do with it. Then, their cache will show up on the lonely list as a maintenance mission, a replace mission or a recover and archive mission. With this powerful tool, I don’t believe it is even necessary to include the replacement option in the game unless it is part of the rescue mission. I wonder if we just don’t remove that option from the LCG Rescue Report unless called for in a mission.

I played hard this year and most of the fun came from not only getting around the state, but for me trying to keep up with the leader or come from behind and surprise someone who had a lock on the win. I will continue to play, but not nearly with the vigor as I did this past year. I think a few more tweaks to a really good set of existing rules and this game will have legs for a long time. Besides, how will Marc ever maintain all those new cemeteries without Dave the janitor cleaning up behind? I’m sure I missed something, but it’s close to 4am and I gotta get some shut-eye. Waiting with anticipation for the revised rules…

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@marc_54140 wrote:

@seldom|seen wrote:

The new year is coming up fast. Are there going to be some rule changes based on everything covered in this thread, and if so, can we provide feedback on the proposed rule changes and modifications before they are implemented?

Now why are you so concerned over possible changes to this? You ARE on Sabbatical, correct?

Til Jan 1st! Then look out, you’ll be seeing a lot more of ME!

[seldom|seen]

The new year is coming up fast. Are there going to be some rule changes based on everything covered in this thread, and if so, can we provide feedback on the proposed rule changes and modifications before they are implemented?

[seldom|seen]

Incorporating them into the Lonely Cache Game so they are more visible and worth more points will certainly help put these missions in a brighter light. I also agree that it is incumbent upon individuals to get to know the Rescue Mission page. Rescues can be placed for any number of reasons and don’t have to be placed only on archived caches that need to be removed.

If you think you have a cache in trouble and are out of town or out of the state, just submit a mission to have someone check on it and repair anything that needs fixing. All I even see are “Verify Missing and Recover” missions, even though many other types of missions are possible.

Seems to me a great tool to maintain caches when you just can’t find the time to get there yourself. In fact, I may submit a few of my own on some caches that need a check-up…

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@JimandLinda wrote:

It doesn’t matter whether you WIN or LOSE, it’s HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME. I’m still learning and enjoying. The Lonely Caches are the most scenic.

That is reward enough. 🙂

BINGO!

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