[seldom|seen]

Interesting thread. Personally, I believe there nothing more under foot than collections of carbon atoms contained in ridiculously ornamented boxes and the only spirits than linger are the ones you bring with you, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect the intent. Sacred ground is build on the respect you show it and any land, be it cemetery, swamp, or savannah deserves it in kind. Everywhere I go when caching is hallowed to me and there are many places more deserving of our respect than manicured tombs, but there is a reason and an intent for their existence and that has to be honored.

I have a handful of cemetery caches. Some highlighting veterans and some the monuments. But it’s not my first choice since it does come with the inherent risk of bringing disrespectful gamers to the graves and unlike being disrespectful of place when you in the middle of the Rat River, someone will eventually witness suspicious activity in a cemetery and being the sacred places they are, will be more reactive than not. Show respect for the place you are, no matter where you are, and you will be fine.

Speaking of respect, I have an inkling what this new acronym, WTQ, stands for. It seems to be in the vicinity of some establishments where certain individuals loose all of their respect and I hope it does not stand for what I think it does, that would be disrespectful.

[seldom|seen]

I’m going to hand off all copy to those adoptees attending the CITO next weekend to the event coordinator to disseminate there. All others, please supply an address if you haven’t already or send me a PM with a rendezvous invite for your hand-off. Thanks! Looking forward to seeing some of you tonight.

[seldom|seen]

@seldom|seen wrote:

Here are a few others I’m letting go of.

GC13MT9 Bored Members
GC15WQB The Psychedelic J’s
Hooked on Phonics Series
Iconoclast Series (decided to keep for now)
Phenomenal Series

Because almost all of these require some paperwork hand-offs for original material reference when geocachers start bugging you, I am going to set up a RENDEVROUS point at Dr Jeckyl’s in downtown Appleton every Wednesday night, from now until May, between 9pm and 11pm or so. You can send me a PM the night of if you want to hook up. I figure there’s no better way to manage all these hand-offs with a bear and some story sharing.

With all the requests coming in from every angle immaginable, I’ve lost track of a couple requests. This is what I want to offer up yet. If you asked from one of these previously, send me a reminder.

Decided to keep Iconoclast series and am still wainting on the Postmarked series confirmation

Everyday Heros series (somebody asked for these earlier)
Phenomenal Series
Hooked on Phonics Series
Crossing Over’s
For Immediate Release (someone asked for this one)
GC13MT9 Bored Members
Light at the End? of the Tunnel

It’s amazing that even after shaving off what will amount to about a third of what I had, I still feel like that list in immense. Crazy. Who would even think that getting it down to about 150 caches owned would be liberating?

[seldom|seen]

@HeliDood wrote:

If someone logs a “found it” but doesn’t physically sign the log book, and their reason for not signing it is, “we found the cache but couldnt reach it” (because they didn’t try hard enough) would you delete the log?

Deleting it will make me the bad guy, I’m pretty sure.

Discretion is the better part of valor.. or something like that. If someone knowingly admits to not being able to reach the cache but logs it as a find, I will usually send a PM to the logger and ask, in the nicest tone possible, if they can change the log to a write note. I would certainly do so for someone who logs Out On a Limb, Takes Shelter, Strung Out… you get the idea. Those caches are ALL about the final hide and getting to them as finders can attest to.

But, if depends on the circumstances and season. In winter I’ve stated that if you can put your hands on an S|S cache but can’t open it because it’s frozen shut or you fear you may break it, then I’m fine with a bye and a find. Better that than a broken container. Besides, signing the log, for most of my caches, is just going through the motions and if you’ve made it that far, well, you’ve made it.

[seldom|seen]

@SammyClaws wrote:

Is there some setting I can turn off or on to keep the unread forum posts from being marked read when I leave the forums?

The power button on your CPU…

[seldom|seen]

@Team Black-Cat wrote:

The tree design was originally in the shape of the state. It was part of Seldom|Seen’s logo submission from a couple of years ago.

And here I though I was going to get a break…

I would love to submit a revision of this concept, but just have too much on my plate right now. If it’s something that the members like as a coin design, feel free to submit it for consideration. If it wins as a concept, then I’m all for working it into the coin design later. Sorry, just can’t justify the time right now, I’m having a hard enough time managing adoptions and getting many caches up and running again. But thanks for the flattery, no matter what happens.

[seldom|seen]

@Lostby7 wrote:

@Team Deejay wrote:

They serve bears at the taverns in Appleton? Sounds like the start of a joke. “A bear walked into a bar in Appleton…”

LOL…..I’m glad it wasn’t just me who got a smile out of the typo.

It was shortly before midnight and the bears I had for supper were starting to work me over…

[seldom|seen]

Thanks to all the takers so far and for those patiently waiting for some kind of reply. Here are a handful that I would like to still find new homes for. If you’ve already adopted some, let others have a go first.

Here are a few others I’m letting go of.

GC13MT9 Bored Members
GC15WQB The Psychedelic J’s
Hooked on Phonics Series
Iconoclast Series (might have a taker)
Phenomenal Series

Because almost all of these require some paperwork hand-offs for original material reference when geocachers start bugging you, I am going to set up a RENDEVROUS point at Dr Jeckyl’s in downtown Appleton every Wednesday night, from now until May, between 9pm and 11pm or so. You can send me a PM the night of if you want to hook up. I figure there’s no better way to manage all these hand-offs with a bear and some story sharing.

[seldom|seen]

@RSplash40 wrote:

You were in the service?

I count myself among those fortunate to have served in the first Gulf War and wise enough to get out before the second go around with JR. I don’t wish the experience on anyone, but at least I wasn’t in direct combat. I will tell you that the first night a SCUD hit our compound and the sirens went off – well that tested my mettle, to be sure. It’s unfortunate that the side effects of the preventative drug we were taking and friendly fire incidents resulted in more overall damage than any fatality count by that wars end. This thing we’re in now… no comment. I promised to be nice in these forums 😉

[seldom|seen]

@labrat_wr wrote:

this should help

Thanks for that, nothing like conjuring up memories of boot camp… some 23 years past. Wow, seems like a lifetime ago. Stranger still to think the day my own boy says “hey dad, I wanna join” and I’ll have to say “good luck kid” is potentially less than a decade away is just plain freaky!

[seldom|seen]

@furfool wrote:

I guess what I’m boiling this down to is that if a cache owner doesn’t want participation of finders in certain ways, why not mention that in the cache description and then delete the logs if they feel that their wishes have been violated? I know that GS ruled against cache requirements, but an owner can still delete logs if they want to, can’t they?

Two thing in quick response. One, I think by nature it’s understood the a puzzle is there to be solved. If not, why is it a puzzle? Two, have you even deleted a log for any reason, no matter how legitimate? It is not an easy thing to do and is most often responded to by the logger in a negative way, no matter how legitimate the issue. What we can and wheht I often do (not always)is send a PM to the logger if there’s anything questionable about the log, to see if there’s some remedy. But I can tell you if I deleted all the logs that I thought weren’t earned by my definition of earning the find… whew, there would be hell to pay. That level of scrutiny is not worth anybody’s time either the CO’s or the finders and why it’s rare that I delete logs. But, yes, it is still the CO’s prerogative to police their caches any way they see fit.

[seldom|seen]

@Braid Beard’s Gang wrote:

I noticed yesterday a cacher took a group of newbies to the final of a series without having them find all the required caches to get the coordinates. He/She had found the final before. The newbies were a cub scout troop. Is that wrong???

Absolultely not, because the intent was very likely to introduce them to geocaching or to maintain their interest without having them toil through the process or be bored with it since it was a group activity that some may not elect to do on their own. It’s the same arguement as caching in a family with multiple identies and logging a puzzle find even though the kids didn’t assist in the solve. They know each other, they know the intent, they know mom and dad are being generous and probably explain what the puzzle was about, especially if it had any historical or location merit.

I’ll say it again. I have no real issue with groups of cachers who enjoy each others company or families that go on outings. They know what they are missing out on if they choose to log puzzles that not everyone has solved and make personal judgements about whether it’s worth the effort for each member to solve or not, that’s their call. I get it and this is not the TOUR issue at hand, never has been.

However, if that same cacher had then proceed to take the troop to another 20 puzzle finals without having the troop do the work to find the cords or even understand the nature of the puzzles, just so they could look in the caches for goodies, then yes, I would have a problem with that, and yet that scenario still would not rise to the level of the issues being discussed here.

The analogy would have to be likened to a den leader inviting all the other den leaders in the Pack to bring their scouts along as well, and indeed extend that invite to all the other Troops in the area… actually the entire state, to all go sign a slew of caches without having the scouts do any of the work so they could earn a merit badge and say they earned it.
I would not want my son to be part of that Den, Pack, Troop or Organization if that were the case.

[seldom|seen]

@marc_54140 wrote:

If you say something often enough, does it become true?

Seldom, as usual, is spouting off facts and concepts for which he has not proof. He makes wild allegations just to support his ideas.

Take what he says, and everyone for that matter, with a grain of salt.

And Barry, while we are on the topic of not having the facts straight, I have conducted several WSQ Tours to cover your cemetery caches.

Thanks CJ for stepping forward. For anyone who cares, here is THAT file. It contains the solves to almost 45 valley caches, 15 of mine, 15 of -cheetos- (mostly archived now) a handfull or your own and 3 others. This file contains coordinates for many difficult puzzle caches and was provided, without solicitation, by you, for the sole purpose of touring final locations with a public (also posted in these forums) invite to 10 other cachers, any other cachers, known by you or not, who if not given the same file for their GPS’s would have been taken to the same locations to log them.

You publicly stated in these forums that the Puzzle Tour was a joke (the only intent I can fathom being to get anyone irritated with the puzzle run that preceded yours, worked up over the issue, again). You then decided to go touring anyway, part of the joke I guess. Well, Marc, I can tell you that neither I nor -cheeto-, not gotta_run nor Sagasu, nor anyone else aware of that GPX file share were laughing. We have been struggling for weeks now to figure out what to do about your TOURing and most of us have responded by archiving caches and thinking seriously about pulling out of the game or at the very lest the number of caches we place, since you will always be there to offer up a tour to anyone who is either willing to go or is not wise to your methods.

All of the above mentioned cachers have a great love for this sport. All of the above mentioned cachers give back in ways you have no concept of because you take more that you give, and I do recognize that you give. It is a real shame that your sole purpose for posting that tour was apparently to get a person like me, a person who tries to give so much of himself to the sport and make every cache memorable, so upset that I pulled my own caches to prevent them from being toured. You are worse than a muggle or a sabatour, sir, because you of all people should know better. Everyone who has come to know s|s caches for what they are knows that my intent is heartfelt, that I unlike you, want everyone to succeed, to enjoy, to learn and to remember; to come away with something lasting.

What have you accomplished with your actions? You’ve alienated many area cachers, you upset a number of great puzzle and cache creators to the point where they are archiving many good caches, you almost got me to give it up entirely and if it wasn’t for the tremendous support from the general community, I might not be here anymore. And you’ve put many of your closest allies over the course of your involvement in geocahcing in a very sucky postion since they have been asked to respond in some way and haven’t been able yet to chart a course that makes us on this side happy but doesn’t ruffle your feathers. Your association with many of the BOD member is not lost on me and I feel terrible for putting them in any position on the matter, did you catch that? “I FEEL TERRIBLE”

I was really trying to be as civil as I could be and keep my outrage with you to a respectable dull roar, but you are now calling me a liar when I have the evidence of your lies in hand. You want to pull of the gloves and spar in the public forums? Fine, but make sure you have your facts straight before you get started.

[seldom|seen]

@TyeDyeSkyGuy wrote:

Smile, it’s a beautiful day. How about getting out and trying some caching??? 😀 😀 😀

Better still, grab a rake and uncover your blanketed Hostas, they’ll thank you for it. Nice to see all that green poking through. Spring is a time of rebirth and rejuvination and I think I speak for many when I say we’re ready to move on.

But, having ignited much of this vitriol with fan in hand, I do want to see some kind of resolution with all the blood still drying on the floor. Nothing worse than a battle with no clear outcome for the better. I don’t know what it is, just yet, maybe a little forgive (without the forget) and some tightly crossed fingers that with all the attention the act of ….ing, or whatever you care to call it, has as least shed some little light on a troubling aspect of the sport for more than a few. Maybe that’s the best I can hope for and maybe it’s enough to get reasonable, likeable, decent cachers to think twice about just what short-logging puzzles means to CO’s and everyone else watching.

And lastly, while I’m not at one with the voice of the BOD, I am at least very grateful that someone is listening out there.

[seldom|seen]

@AstroD-Team wrote:

Is getting together with others to go caching in an area a “tour”?
Is getting together with family to go caching in an area a “tour”?
Is getting together with others strictly to find puzzles in an area a “tour”?
Is getting together with others while at an event a “tour”?
Is getting together to collaborate on a puzzle and then running out to make the find a “tour”?
Is getting together certain individuals to go caching in an area a “tour”?
Is meeting other cachers while doing a cache a “tour”?
Is any group of cachers in the same area a “tour”?
Is a geocaching event considered a “tour”?

The short answer it NO, to all of the above. In fact most of them are good reasons to get out and go caching since for many people the social aspect is a primary motivating factor.

Puzzle CO’s might roll my eyes when a new crew comes from out of town and tags-a-long with a cacher who’s spent a ton of time making valley solves only to share the final cords with them, but only because it robs the tag-a-longs of the opportunity of the solve experience, which can be rewarding as the solvers of those tours well know. When that happens, the real sting occurs when the tag-a-longs perform copy-paste logs and make it know to all that they have no idea what they just missed out on and seemingly don’t really care how it makes the CO or the previous solvers feel. There’s that element of respect again. But CO’s learn to live with this kind of behavior since we know it’s about caching within a group of friends that makes it fun, and we wouldn’t want to take that away from anyone. We just with those tours, if they are about caching together, would stick to the traditionals where there would be no issue.

The difference here and the reason that a number of valley cachers are worked up is not in any of the above definitions. It is the act going beyond any of those reasonable excuses to go caching by publicly posting an invite to take as many who are willing to a huge number of puzzle finals without even asking the tag-a-longs to contribute or even know what caches they are going to hunt. It is not about going with friends and family. Any cacher could have signed up for the recent tour and been accepted, regardless if they knew the leader or not. And that’s exactly what happened with a newbie who was introduced to this way of doing things and I imagine is tired of his ears ringing and wondering why he ever went along for the ride. It is using the forums to promote this kind of activity because that person feels he can get away with it since there are no hard and fast rules about caching. So it’s fine to do whatever you need to sidestep puzzles but heaven forbid you try to place a cache within 514′ of another one, despite how unique, valuable or interesting your cache may be. You have to follow the guidelines after all.

And the big one, it’s about not having the strength of character to respect the wishes of a number of cache owners who have asked the tour leader to stop targeting them, and opting instead to do just that.

The big picture issue that many of us who are trying to add value to the sport are given less, yes less, consideration that those who try to dilute distill or just plain delete that added value. All they care about is the numbers and they will win every time there is any kind of dispute about who is right and who is wrong, because there are no rules as stated and moreover, the sport is in one reviewers words, ‘just a waste of time with no more reason to exist but to do so’ (parsed). And there’s the rub. If the powers that have power to shape the sport, better it and give it more meaning insist on defaulting to the lowest common denominator, we who want to make the sport more rewarding by giving cachers something more that a smiley, simply have to live with it or get out. I’ve chosen to live with it, but despite how futile it is in light of all I just said, I will not go quietly into that silence…

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